AI Founders Podcast

Transcript

Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the SAS Universe Podcast today. Joseph Abraham, founder and CEO of SaaS, industry and Uber Saga has a one on one with Amit. Now Amit is the CEO and founder of ensure edit. Ensure Reddit enables and empowers end customers and insurance intermediaries with artificial intelligence based product platforms for transformational customer experiences, which in turn solves problems like enabling better product market fit, increasing affordability. And financial inclusion, just to name a few things. Now here are Joseph and Amit. Enjoy the show.

Hi Amit, thank you so much for taking the time and joining us today on the SaaS Founders Podcast. It's really nice to have you. I really loved our chat right before this call where I got to know you a bit and about what you're trying to solve. One of the fascinating things that really struck me hard was that you've been a. You know, hardliner, being a CEO of Motorola for India, and you know done some amazing things out there. And this is your second innings, you know? And in the whole different innings as an founder. And so I'm excited to chat about that and get to know you a little more better. So welcome to the.

Thanks very much Joseph. Same here. Appreciate the conversation. Before this we went live and look forward to answering as as as well as I can.

Thank you so much. Great so very quickly. What's the story of ensured it? Like what's the origin of it? How did it start? So I realized that you had a stellar career career. You know you met some of the best people did some amazing things. I mean, it was nice to know about all of that. And so how did this whole startup phase happen and what's how did it ensured it happen? What's the origin of insured?

So I think the origin of insured date is. Essentially, in my case, from very deep rooted friendships. My co-founder in the company is Rohit, Sadhu and Rohit and I and we we belonged to a small town right? We both Rohit and I were from Jammu. We did all of our schooling there and then as he went into his engineering and did his MBA. I did the same thing. We pretty much in the early stages of career were in the same as the techie. Rohit was in textiles. And then post MBA. I had a different career line. Rohit has spent about 1012 years outside of India. He was in London for I think a few years. Then he moved to New York where he was for 67 years. But one of the things despite this time gap and you know, time zone gaps between Rohit and me, has been. We used to kind of talk every month at least once. And preferably over a beer. So so you know, as as some of as we're doing some of the good stuff at Motorola and post at at at smartphone as well as reading this very large tech forward, impactful projects for BFSI vertical at PwC for.

OK.

And over one of the conversations, the intent was here. We're smart enough people. We're doing some good stuff. Can we do something? And that I think that something was initial seed.

Right?

But I mean it, it took a serious turn over a couple more conversations. And as we started talking about certain areas wherein we could fundamentally change. Right and one of one of the things that Rohit and I and we hadn't even nailed down what we wanted to do right? But one thing that we set up as an agreement was that if we ever end up doing something together, it's got to be something that is going to be super large. Impact, right we we wanted to make sure that. We're creating an impact over a period of time on practically millions and billions of people, right? Now coming from the world that I came from, wherein the mobile devices and hardware and all that fancy stuff is probably about 30 billion dollars. We realized that insurance is about 100 billion dollars in India and insurance. We are just getting started and then there is, you know. Basically it's an analog industry pen and papers call centers, hardly any trust, and we we we started talking about. What is it that can be done so that we have great response? Are getting delivered for end consumers? Now one thing as I said earlier. I mean one of the one of the data points that I heard in the early days was at about couple of percent of Indian population. Every year goes below poverty line because they are spending money from their own pocket and I thought that was absolutely terrible for a country of our economics and country of our. Lives, it means a lot of lives, a lot of families and the impact that it has. It has generational impact, perhaps from. It was, it was an idea that stuck with me. The second thing that at the same time happened was I was. Actually doing my. Own insurance and my relationship manager from a specific bank came over and they had me fill up a form which was kind of half paper, half on net banking the payment. Was by check and I and it was a couple of options and I just didn't get enough options and there was like why is this happening? Why don't you guys have a system and? They said that. This is what we have, and as we kind of got a lot of that conversation together, we realized that this is a market which is so impactful. So meaningful for an average person. And if we if we could. If we could do the right things in this industry. I think we. Could be changing a lot of lives for good and. For I think for both Rohit and me who are doing, I will say, you know, at the peril of sounding snobbish amazingly well in the careers. I think, but that was motivation enough to say, OK, maybe this deserves a break from everything else. Let's get into it and try to set something up. So yeah, that's that's been the genesis.

That's really nice, so you have a compelling idea and you do have some statistics to show that this is like something that you can really like. Switch over to and and give over a good period of your time. So great so we have an idea you're driven by it. You make a switch. How did you know that there was validation in this in this problem and there was a solution that you could build, you know towards that. So can you just take us through that solution and the validation that you you know got along the way moment of epiphany or something that that you could share with our audience?

So just one interesting thing is, as much as I would love to have epiphanies. I haven't had any.

Got it, got it.

Right?

I think sometimes building up conviction around businesses products, maybe to philosophically around. Life is a collection of lot more smaller things, right? And you you have an idea, you fortify that idea over a period of. Time I I wish I honestly. Wish that I had. Like this moment of epiphany and something amazing happened and triggered. And it's a it's a trillion dollar life altering thing. No, I did right, but but what we did have was that coming from the middle class background that both Rohit and I came from originally having those families having friends that for all middle class or otherwise. I I don't think I coincidentally or luckily I didn't. Have any rich friends? Probably would have gotten to learn some of these things from them, but I think as as as we were talking right at 2:00 levels at from a from a demand side to say. To the end consumers right? And we talked to quite a few people we actually put in a once a small form and said what are the pet peeves and I had a fairly decent following on social media at the time and now I am no longer on social media but I put in a couple of questions out. There to pick. Up some responses, right? So the intent was to do a. Dipstick check around. What is the kind of response that we get broadly from people? What is the first thing that occurs to them when we say something? This right? The second was to kind of go into the larger value chain and say where is the value chain getting disaggregated. Right and and see where are the breakpoints? Why? If a certain process is a certain way, why is it that way? And most importantly, I think which is the 3rd. Thing is. I am a huge, huge, huge believer of. That great businesses or disruptive businesses are built when you disagree with the current processes. It is and so it is essentially a disruption of of the mental models which have been set in cast in stone. Now, as long as you can't change right so we our conversation was a lot to do with why? Why am I being asked for ABC XYZ amount of work or paper or this? If I have to do a simple policy, why? Why is the price point somewhere else and somewhere not the same Rohit and I are one of the common example that I used to give is Rohit and I both are pretty much the same age. He's a 62 guy. I'm a 56 guy but otherwise. Pretty much the. Same thing now. He has a great, you know health and Wellness.

That's right.

Lifestyle runs about 7 kilometers every day in the morning. Eats very specific diet and the other way around, right? I'm the kind of guy who eats, doesn't work out. Gods bless me with some decent enough your, you know lean frame so that was it. But if you, if both he and I had. To buy insurance. He is a much lower risk guy than me. He should be much lower premiums compared to me. Why is that not the case? If I drive my car 10,000 kilometers and Rohit drives it 60,000 kilometers, why are he and I paying the same money for the insurance? In a way wouldn't be the case, right? I mean if if you see the the questions as we were aggregating around the industry, they were very actually simplistic observations but across a wider spectrum of people and wider participants. In the value chain. As we funneled it, it all came down to basically 2 or 3 things. The economics, the financial metrics of. Entire value chain. Got got distilled into 2 simpler things. One was wise insurance not available to broadly the masses. Across the country. And 2. Why do I have to buy the product that you asked me to buy? Why is not it exactly the product that I want to buy?

Got it absolutely so, so there's. There's a paradox of choice that you don't even have a choice to make in the first place. It's what's served in the platter. Amazing so I'm gonna switch gears here. I'm going to ask you a very different question, which is you started? Ensured it, so what's the big difference? You know that you have found being a founder versus being, you know, in the corporate world. So what's the big big change that you observed in in yourself?

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So what's the big difference? You know that you have found being a founder versus being in the corporate world, so what's the big big change that you observed in yourself?

I think again it's. It's a term that are very commonly used with my friends. And family now. Entrepreneurship is like a bipolar disorder.

OK uh-huh

Right you one day, you get up in the morning and you think that you're going to. The world by evening you're like I'm not even sure that this. Thing works, got it. Great next next day, half the day, you're still thinking that this is not going to work till something clicked and you say I know this is going to. Be amazing, right? So?

Yeah, yeah.

Entrepreneurship is a bit of an up and down. To that extent. And it is lot more intense compared to anything else. I think it's almost like having a newborn baby that you are. You are really looking at 20:04, Cross 7 and and making sure that you know everything is right, right, right. So it's lot more lot. I think I've I've worked hard in a lot of my careers. I don't think I have worked as hard as I have worked. Here with the degree. Of intensity and that degree of intensity is consistent. There is no difference between a Wednesday and a Saturday, a Sunday or a Tuesday. Doesn't matter, you are. You are switched on practically 24%. It was not. Which was not true for corporate I think. I think corporate jobs. You know they're rewarding in a different way. You get multiple challenges. You get to see probably a wider spread of the world, but honestly you should. In corporate world, I mean as much as your career may be at stake. To a large city, it's not like as if your soul is at stake, especially if you're brought into, bought into the idea and you you're bought into the larger impact that it can have on people.

Yep, absolutely, I hear you great. So amazing this switch and and this whole like a whole new found life. So I'm going to again quickly ask you this question, which is simple and poignant, which is what's your product. You know all about who is it for and what does it really do, right? So very simple, straightforward question.

Sure, so our product is essentially a connecting pipeline between insurance manufacturers or insurance. That we provide to insurance distributors of different nature. It can be a broken company. It can be a bank. It can be a corporate agent for them to start selling insurance digitally to the masses. Now they could do it in a D 2 C format or in a B 2 B 2 C format. Now why the B 2 B 2 C format is important is because in India number 190% of insurance is sold through distributors. Number 2 globally, insurances are intermediated business and about anywhere between 90 to 99% of insurance is sold through people and not DFC, right? And our take is that it is something that you will keep on seeing over next decade, decade and a half, at least until there is some. Really interesting communication disruption that happens like you know, mobile networks happened and cloud happened, something that is lot more larger than this and creates a different kind of an ecosystem. Your people and intermediation of people is going to be there, so we provide the systems so our consumers tend to be our. Our customers tend to be insurance entities that are selling the product. But a consumer. Tend to be feet on street and point of sale. Who are selling the products?

Awesome, awesome. So you you, you're the platform in between you know these 22 different you know kind of channels of. You know consumer and you know probably producer consumer. You know intimately if you have to say.

That's right, so so call. You may call you know insurance infrastructure. You may call us middleware technology infrastructure. There are various names that people give us, but yeah, that's that's at the sole of it. That's what we are.

Awesome great. I mean this sounds very interesting. So in terms of, you know, getting your early adopters right, so let's talk more about that. So how did you get early adopters? I understand you come from an industry so. I know you have contacts. You know you have a stellar career, so you know different people. So how did how did did that help you? Or did you have to start all the way from scratch? Get your earlier earlier Optus in the game.

No, I mean, I, you know, I absolutely the previous stints that I have had in career have been a tremendous help. I think I think absolutely right. I mean the very fact that a lot of people in the industry knew it was a phase that people had seen or heard before. I think I think that did make a very, very positive impact. But my first actually adopter. Did not happen because any of those connects. My first doctor happened because I I was in an specific insuretech conference. Attending a conference and I met up with somebody and we got talking and this was a broking company and you know, we said I said hey, I have some of these ideas that we're thinking about. Doing we're setting up this new venture and da DA and he said, yeah, you know what I've been. I've been telling people that. Until something like this happens. Insurance intermediaries will never be able to reach masses that the way they need to reach, and this problem of penetration in India will never be solved. So that, yeah, that that's a that's a great, you know, endorsement form and a person who has been doing insurance business for about 20 years over over. And we stayed in touch over next few days as we were kind of conceptualizing the entire tech stack and how we want to. Do it we ask that person to kind of come and help us. Kind of think this through and his viewpoints about what regulation may mean in this case because some of the things that are a part of regulation, sometimes to an outsider look like it doesn't make sense. Why is this? Here, but it's only with the depths of the understanding of the industry that people tell you what happens that. There is a. There's a lot of books. There is a lot of articles. There is a lot of you know certifications that will be there that will tell you this is what it is. But the tribal knowledge? That people have by doing that business over a period of time is worth its weight in gold. So so I will and and you know, we're we we still tell people, including the now 100 plus clients that we have that that first guy who's our client as well then became our first client. As well. Was essentially the guy who navigated and told us about how regulation works and therefore what product needs to do and how it needs to comply with regulation. So yeah, that was the first and and after that it's been actually. It's been actually amazing. I mean about. On a lower side, probably about 70% of the clients that we get come out of reference.

Nice wow, wow, that's that's a good number to have and it's a it's a good plug to have. Absolutely great.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In a in A B 2 B environment, right? I mean in a in a cutthroat industry like insurance distribution, wherein sometimes I believe that nobody wants to help nobody. I think it's it's been fantastic and and and we still have practically all of our clients. Sometimes some of the larger players who become our clients, they will come up and say hey we want to do ref checks on you and your products and stuff like that. So we'll we tell them, hey, here's a list of like X. Number of clients go. Pick up here are the phone numbers listed. You tell us who to talk to. We will pick them. Ask telling them that you may get a call. So please talk to them. And yeah, have a word. See what what we are doing and how it helps.

Wow wow. Absolutely absolutely nice to hear that. Great, so how did you build your team? I mean you and Rohit met, I mean it turned into an idea so. Let's talk us through your team. How did you build your early team? And how are you scaling?

Yeah, I mean honestly the the toughest thing to do is is building our team right, I mean. So in in my case, so I I I will say the whole thing is 2 parts, right? There's a, there's a business team so to say. And there's a technology team that we have built out, right? I think building out the business team for us has been relatively easier, right? Because people in the industry from a business perspective from the sales and marketing and so. On and so forth. New me new Rohit so when we were talking to them. We could we. Could communicate in a more business terminology what we were up to, what it means, and how it can change things right? I think getting technology folks on has been has been a lot more tougher compared right because last time I called it was in 2000. 12 hardly have any who are. Building our products right? But I think one thing that we did well was some of our initial guides that we hired. We we actually talk quite a bit to most of right, especially and not just the anointed few right. Most of the team we tend to talk quite a bit, and as a matter of culture that we are building out, if you walked into our office you will find it difficult to figure out who is a guy who has probably joined like a month. Back end. Who is the CEO or the CEO CTO here? Because it's all within within a certain cultural framework that everyone is operating right. So our our submission has been to new folks that come in to look at the larger thing that we are doing. Some of the good stuff that we have to do in terms of building up initial technology and then you know, reach out to our networks or to friends and their families and and get referrals. And see who are the people who are bought into the idea, because I think that's very important from that person. But yeah, I mean that's it's. It's lot more tougher. It's been lot more tougher in last year and the year, year and a half as well. Especially with COVID and everything else in place, people are working from home. So it's been a tough one, but I think. I think we've been a lot more focused on making sure that we get the right set of people. Even if it's fewer and we have the kind of people that we can and they can talk to lot easily. One of the one of the again foundational principles of hiring for us, and I may sound like endorsing beer brands. Here is if if I can. If in my hiring, if I do not believe that I can go out for a drink with a fellow colleague. That's probably not the guy I would hire invited.

Got it, got it, that's that's a good way to look at it. Yes, absolutely, like because.

Yeah, I mean.

As I said, because it's it's not going to be. It's not as if you join a startup and it's it's hunky Dory.

Yes yeah yeah.

Not, it's stopped. It's building up. A startup is super difficult, right? And you, as a founder, cannot expect everyone in the team to operate at the same level of intensity. It's just not possible. Even if somebody tried to work at sometimes at the same levels of intensity as as as some of the founders to begin with, right? So it's important that you can figure out those folks who come at least as close as possible to. And when you find those guys trust me, it's it's worth hiring 50 folks.

Wow wow, really nice. So tell us a little bit about like what's been happening on the funding scene so I raise. Any funds are going to raise. I did notice that there was some activity out there, but how has it been for you? I mean. This whole new world of venture and raising money and things like that.

So see, I mean one of one of the things that I&I don't know. Maybe it's it's the experience of having run businesses over a period of time. I am not one of those guys who believes that you need to raise a ton of. I think you need to raise enough. To have fuel in the tank. You need to raise enough so that you can do what you want to do, and if you want to run certain experiments and skunk works, but I don't think that if you believe that your annual burn is going to be, for example $1,000,000 that you go ahead and you know raised 20. Like so, So what So what we did was in the early days and we raised. Capital in the in the middle of COVID. That's our first phase right? And that was when basically, you know, I think we see is and everyone else was given they were not sure. How do we? How do we even decide that this is a deal that we want to consider that we? Are not even meeting people face to face. So, but we we did a we did a small raise at that time of about you know, close to about 800 K US. Total, including some of the capital that founders and some of the early backups had put in. We were shared less than about $1,000,000 in the beginning. We recently, you know, have raised another about 4 and a half million. Just we're actually in the process of concluding that, and hopefully, as this podcast goes live, that that news will be more public as well. So yeah, we have raised that capital and that gives us that gives us enough ammunition and fuel in the tank to build out what we are doing next couple of years time.

Oh, that's really nice. Really, really nice. I mean, I like the the whole, you know, reference of having the fuel you know in your tank. I mean, just enough to keep going very it's. It's a nice way to actually look at that, right? So very, very interesting.

Yeah, I think one and one of the reasons for that is I think you know. By the end of the day, a lot of this is about value creation, right? And that value creation will ask of you to get. Right kind of people and right kind of capital. Coming into onto your captive right. And and I think making sure that the that great quality of capital is sitting on your CAP table and in your bank is as important as having that.

Absolutely no denial about that. So great and. So you build this amazing business. You have been able to get your routers. Now you have, you know the fuel in the tank, so to speak. What do you do to? Avoid churn. So how are you building it as a churn proof business? Or, you know, ensuring that you're able to retain customers. So this is one area that a lot of SaaS founders struggle with because you know, churn. Everybody wants to build a negative churn company. So what are? What are some of the things that you are doing in that respect?

I think I think churn in context or B 2 C&B 2 B are are very different.

Absolutely different, yes.

In in case of B 2 B, one of one of one of the things that we tend to do what we try to do is just over communicate. So we we believe that. Clients partners who are signing up with us who are coming on board want our product as directly as we want to build it out. Right now for them, if there is churn, it only means one thing that it's not helping them do what they want. And that's great feedback. Interestingly enough, and again, God 's been kind, we've had zero churn so far. But even if we did have chill right and I am. Something in me, it tells me. At some stage we will. Right, it's it's. Bound to happen if for somebody it. May not workout that well, right? It's a part of business, right? But I think. I think if we. Over communicate and this is one thing. We have learned. Hardware as well and I would install anyone who cares to listen to my advice on this. Set up a communication protocol. I think having a fundamental communication protocol in place with your customers. Is very important and not in a in a cliched way that we need feedback from the customer. Sure, we need feedback. From the customer. But just whether you have that customer feedback or not, talk as much as possible unless until the customer comes back and says for heavens sake, stop calling.

Right?

Talk enough, right? Because what happens is there's a lot of conversation which is, which is probably not structured, but gives you insights into the smaller pain points that consumers or customers may have, right? So so in especially in B 2 C context, I think having an overarching communication protocol Whose principle is to overcome? It may be the best possible tool to avoid chip.

Great, so that that's really nice to know Amit about. Like you know you being at a point where you have zero churn and that's so true to actually establish communication protocols and you know so and so forth. We have almost come to the end of the podcast and I have a rapid fire. You know round for you. Sadly I'm far away from you so I can't send you a gift hamper. You know if you. Answer It right. But we'll definitely send something across to you right after this show so quick one. I'm filing the first.

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Episode so quick one. I'm firing the first one away. Is there a book that you're reading right now, or a show that you're watching that you that's really inspired and motivated you?

I'm I'm I'm reading a book on blockchain nowadays, yes.

OK, and is there a name that you can share or some ideas from the book that you can share?

Blockchain basics.

Boxing basics got it got it. Question 2 is is there a? Leader that you that you love and follow that that you feel that there's something to learn from this person.

Actually, one of one of my one of my ex bosses. I know it's it's so out there and probably that's not what a lot of people think, but I have had a boss at Motorola Alquist. I think he was one of the most remarkable person that I know I've seen, how he has been. Not only invested in business, but also in people that he was working with and how how clean straight he was in his approach with the with tons of empathy. So so yeah, I mean, there's probably, you know, a lot of great folks out there, but I think Magnus has impacted my. Close to work and close to people very very significantly so. Yeah, wherever you are, Magnus.

As of the. Great nice to hear that question number 3 very quickly out to you, which is what's your favorite gadget at this point of time?

Oh my favorite gadget is always a phone.

OK, any name that you can share.

I so I. I'm using nowadays or my Motala guys. I'm not gonna like this, I'm I'm using a Samsung note now.

OK.

Nice, very nice, great awesome question. 4 is is there a favorite online SaaS tool that you love? SAS app SaaS tool.

Yeah, I mean, that's a tough one because I think I think I use quite a few, but the one that I really nowadays you know, because I'm working with it as well, is fresh.

First Test OK, awesome great next question very quickly how many hours of sleep do you? Get at night.

0I sleep about 8.

Got it next one. How is pandemic changed your life?

I I think.

I think for good, honestly, I mean I think I think maybe we are among some of those blessed folks who haven't had to bear the brunt of the pandemic. But, and the reason I'm saying for good is because I think it's it's kind of opened up our eyes to lot more things it has opened up our lives to and. At the at the peril of sounding philosophical about this, I think it's it's. It's taught us the frailties of. The entire world in one go, right? And rather than thinking that alright, you know what this could happen, or that could happen. I mean, for me in the initial days I I just kept on thinking how similar he really similar this was to a lot of those zombie echo clips movies, right? I mean it tells you a lot of lot of what we take. Granted, isn't isn't necessarily for granted, so I think it just from the perspective that. It has taught me to respect the time as it is, it's going the time that we spend with our friends and families. The very fact that honestly there is nothing earth shattering any bad happening to anyone of us right now. Here there's a blessing. So I mean, I think it just made me. Relatively more empathetic than probably I was. I was prior to the pandemic.

Great, I mean yeah, so totally true. This is my last question. Get done in the rapid fire, but this is the last question I ask. Every person, every guest who comes on the show, which is what's something that you wish you knew when you were 20.

Oh wow.

I sometimes do think that it would have been interesting. To know that. That there is a certain set of capabilities that I had and that I could accomplish as much as probably I have so far. Coming from a small town. And small town middle class families. There is so much of this lingering question mark that you always have in front of yourself. You know? You know there were there were there were amazing. You know small, small things that I wanted to do in life. And and I think I think if I had a little bit more confidence, I'm not sure I would have done anything differently. I may just have accelerated what I have done just given myself a little bit good time. Just give told myself not to take everything too seriously. I&II nowadays take I still take a lot of things very seriously. Would probably much fewer things compared to what what I do think.

Totally get it awesome. So it's a really nice chatting with you. I mean there's a lot of things that I personally learned from not, you know, talking to you, you know things that stood out for me was especially towards the end when. You talked spoke. About the frailty of life and how to not take everything for granted and ensure that time is precious and make the best use of it. Also love the whole idea that it takes guts to actually move from corporate world after you had, you know a good stint because you have like you, you basically like you know, standing in front of you are 2 roads like how Robert Frost says you know and then the road not taken right? So you you made the choice and and it's it's difficult to make the choice. Because of it's not a simple choice because it involves family, it involves a lot of different things, but you made a choice and and happy. That you made a choice, not because you wanted to just be a founder, but because there's a very compelling problem that you're solving, which is very, very interesting. In fact, I never knew the statistic of. Of 2 percentage going through the poverty line because they couldn't afford healthcare. I mean that is really startling. I mean. And I mean, that's a big takeaway from me. That if founders, if you're listening to this, solve something that really is like really going to disrupt, going to make a change. I mean that I definitely take that to heart. Thanks so much for joining. Lovely chatting with you and looking forward to staying in touch.

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