AI Founders Podcast

Welcome everyone to the SaaS Universe podcast. In this episode, Joseph Abraham, founder and CEO of SaaS industry and Uber Saga, has a virtual sit down with Ari Khan, CEO and president of Bridgeline Digital Ridgeline. Provide solutions that transform the way brands interact with their customers. In other words, they enable brand marketers to build and deliver exceptional customer experiences across multiple channels. In this episode Joseph Unpacks Ari's journey as a seasoned entrepreneur to eventually heading Bridgeline Digital and the role Bridgeline plays in the larger market tech ecosystem. Netscape right into it.

Hi Ari, thank you so much for joining us on the Saas bonus podcast. It's really nice to have you and it was really nice to chat with you and get to know a little bit about your story and. About you know how bridge line and and and your connection to Bridge line happened, right? So in a very interesting conference that you were saying in in listening to bridge's presentation so very very, very interesting to get to know entrepreneur. A seasoned entrepreneur. Very rarely do I get to talk to a seasoned entrepreneur who's been there done that. Love the the spark on your face when. You spoke about your. Days at IBM. In in in. In the hustling, you know. That you did. At that point of time. So I I did see that that that little kid, you know. Show up a bit so. So, so welcome to the show Ari. I mean it's it's nice to have you.

Thank you Joseph. I'm excited to be here and I've. Enjoyed our conversations as well.

So great, so I'm just going to cut to the chase and I'm gonna ask you a very straightforward question about you know what does Bridgeline do? So and? And who is this product for? I know there's a suite of products, I know that this is targeted to its e-commerce e-commerce space in general, but in essence, what does Bridgeline do and who?

Great well Bridgeline helps online marketers grow their grow their online revenue specifically so we have a suite of products that can increase traffic for a website. They can increase the conversion of that traffic into buyers and they can increase the average order value of each one of those buyers and our customers. Are generally what we describe as mid market comma. On the small end, $250 million companies and on the higher end $4 billion companies. We also have some enterprise software for businesses like Caterpillar and IBM and AstraZeneca, so the enterprise 10s of billion dollar companies also drive value from our products.

Awesome, so what's the story of Bridgeline? I mean, I mean, how did Bridge line start and and you evolved and there were? Pivots so let's. Let's deliver a little bit on that and and understand how was the journey and what are the pivots. What did what did the pivots happen, and where are you right?

Great great well so I'm not the founder of Bridgeline Bridgeline.

Absolutely got it.

Had a life. Before Ari and it was a great life but it was.

Got it.

A different life bridgeline. Started as a roll up of digital agencies so there was a strategy of acquiring advertising agencies in different. Markets and to become a large global advertising agency and along the way it had acquired some technology and it became apparent that there's a reason why most marketing agencies are not public. It's really not a good business model for public companies. But the technology was pretty. Interesting and Bridgeline itself began to pivot from being an agency into a software company, which is a major pidgeot pivot, both culturally, financially in every way.

Awesome and UM to the to the question that I have is that. How did you join Bridge line and when did this happen and and how did this happen?

OK alright well. As Bridgeline was making this pivot, I was at an investor conference after I'd sold my my first company Fatwire and I saw them presenting. And like a typical jerk that has zero accountability, I leaned over to the guy next to me and said, wow man, I could fix that company in a heartbeat. I don't know what they're struggling with. That was one of the founders of that space.

Got it.

Yeah, so I went home, slept like a baby not a problem in the world as they struggled and the phone started ringing and everyone said hey are you said you knew something about this? Why don't you come in and fix? The company.

Got it.

I ended up telling my wife, hey honey, we're going to invest in a company called Fatwire or called Bridge Line started off with like a quarter $1,000,000 in the end friends and I put in like 2,000,000 bucks and then I became the CEO. They pulled me in. They actually do what I said could be done but you know what? We did it, we transform. Armed roll up if agencies which culturally is all about short term profits, every single project is measured down to the number of hours spent on it and what the margin is on each one of those hours. Very different to a software company that's making investments upfront in research and development.

Right?

Selling products that the return on investment may be years for each sale, but as an exponential growth curve and a huge bottom line margin that you know is the reason why software companies drive such high multiples on the stock.

Call it so you mentioned about fat fire and so I want to just go back down the memory lane and and refresh your memory and I want to ask you few questions about when did this entrepreneurship bug. If I may, if I may say so, like you know, bite you and and and how did that happen and. What was the journey? From there.

OK, all right. Well I was in Graduate School and doing a artificial intelligence and missile guidance with Hughes Research Labs and this is 1996. So the the the there wasn't even Google yet. Right the Internet industry.

Got it.

We're just getting started. There certainly was no idea of Sass. People were still selling in the older perpetual model and I spoke with my advisor at school and and I actually asked him. I said, hey, you know.

So I I I've.

Got some ideas. I want to start a company but Texas Instruments and Hughes Research Labs and these guys want me to work there. What are your thoughts and he said, hey, you are single, you have nothing to lose. No offense, but hurry, you're a kid with nothing to lose. No kids, no nothing. Go out there and if you fall. On your face. Just get up and do something else.

Got it.

So I I took that advice to heart and I gotta say, you know, I've never worked for anyone. I've always been founder of companies, CEO's and and and I and I've probably you know, missed opportunities to learn from other. People, but it's a lot of fun to just invest in yourself. Try your hardest. There's nothing that creates success as much as challenge and just having to figure it out. And I've been a A. Startup guy ever since?

Great, so let's talk. A little bit about Fatwire again. So how did fat wire happen, because, UM. I'm I'm trying to dig into this whole narrative of you being an an entrepreneur and and and and and try to find some lessons that other entrepreneurs can learn from you. So you had a very interesting exit and a good one. So how did fatwire happen and how did the exit happen? And you can just quickly? In briefly like explain how did that journey happen, yeah?

So when we started that wire in 96, we had no business plan, no specific product we were going to build just. Marks and willing to speak with anyone that need. Anything quickly received an introduction to some people at IBM and at Motorola and recognized that they both had similar needs.

Right?

They had a bunch of information they wanted to get it onto the Internet, but every time they did anything they had to get a programmer involved. A program in HTML. Page so we automated. Yet and out of those core market needs, we developed the whole company that ultimately sold to Oracle for $160 million. And one of the key things. One of the key lessons that I tell people within our team every day is you have to just listen to the customers. Don't be presumptuous. Don't think that you and out of thin air can come up with a great idea, and that's going to be the one. Follow the needs of the customers. And even as a SaaS. Company Ridgeline we maintain a professional services component relatively small 3 or $4 million in revenue, but it creates a relationship with our customers. So that we're. Always hearing what they're paying points are and able to drive that back into our products for more relevant innovations.

Caught it so switching gears back to bridge line so when this pivot happened at Bridge Line I mean what were some of the things that you did so that the change management was effective because you're changing the whole strategy from being an agency or or a, you know mega agency so to speak to a SAS. Company, right, so it's a big shift, is a big pivot. So how did that go about and how did you actually rally people and resources? To make that happen.

Right, right, yeah it was. It was very challenging and not that not all the people made the transition quite frankly. So you need. To have clarity as to what the world's gonna be like tomorrow for each individual and speak and the what's in it for me. Kind of reminds that so alright, great you know you work on this project. And every day you're meeting with customers and they're telling you what to do that day. And the next day something else. Instead, we're going to just stop listen really hard. Think long term and start building and this is what that means for you. Individually, you're going to be able to be more innovative. You're not going to get bounced around back and forth all the time, but at the same time, no more going out to lunches with the customers and spending 400 bucks and and and so forth. And it was right for some people, not for others but but clarity as to what the new company is going to look like and how that affects everyone individually is is critical. Otherwise, people going the wrong direction, or they're disappointed and you have all sorts of problems as a result.

Great so. So there's a pivot that happened, and there's a repositioning in the market. So how did you go? Get your first few customers and land your? You know first key accounts.

Winning the first customer is the hardest thing.

Right?

And it's so hard. And for Bridgeline it was, it was easier because Bridgeline already had customers that were agency. Now customers were able to cross sell into those. But then as we introduced new products. And we have to bring in new logos as customers for it.

Right?

One of the keys is if you can find a partner. And have introductions through a trusted partner that initial customer acquisition can be much easier and there are lots of great companies that have very formal partner programs. The most formal is actually in the SAS space, so I can call the marketplace or the exchange, but Salesforce really innovative this with the app. Exchange that they have. Shopify has a great one and in that case your products are able to be showcased inside of this marketplace and those initial wins can happen through that. Now that's usually more of an SMB or a mid market strategy to win an enterprise customer like an AstraZeneca. Or Caterpillar big companies that we work? But that is a long term sales cycle, no matter what you're doing. It requires that you are face to face with key decision makers that you have some formality in your own sales cycle. Concepts like a closed plan and upfront and so forth in order to get the keep the sales cycle going. That's a lot. Harder and a lot of SAS companies don't have to do that. But if you're selling into an enterprise there you need to know somebody inside of that enterprise and to be able to work through the organization.

Right? So there's a big. You know myths, I would say because I come from the enterprise world as well. You know, trying to doing what I'm doing so the myth is that sales cycle times are longer. It's longer, often only when you don't have the right kind of channels are you're not talking the right kind of people, or you're not trying to sell the right kind of product. The the the RFP's are going totally wrong so the the procurement is is not not right set right? So what are some things that you observed that has helped you to sell to enterprises and mid market clients very effectively? Because I do see a suite of products. And usually I'm I'm excited because, uh, when I see somebody having a suite of products and especially you having a. This this set. Of products which are in the material realm. It's it's not easy to to to sell because at times you have to position one or the other depending on the use cases. And then of course you have the opportunity to cross sell. So how do you make those complex choices of how you position yourself in the market? In in which category you want to position yourself and all of that?

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So how do you make those complex choices of how you position yourself in the market? In which category you want to position yourself and and all?

Well, you know. So we were very. Thoughtful in that positioning, and in particular how we were going to be able to approach enterprises and. We spent time up front before we started opening our mouths and potentially saying the wrong thing, understanding what their true pain points were and the the commonality is. Revenue is generally the driver for decisions, especially in. Surprises there's a saying that CEO's have two problems, revenue and everything else very true. So we positioned our suite of products all around a core message around revenue. So everything that we say is we help drive more revenue we can grow.

Right?

Your revenue online now you get their. Attention then you. Have to listen, what are their main challenges on the revenue side? And if they don't care about revenue for some reason, then OK, fine, then just get out of. There quickly and don't waste. Time because you don't have any. To sell but and. Then we further break down our. Sweet to really what we call the ecommerce 360 equation revenue equals traffic. How many people visit your website times conversion percentage of them by times order value? What is the average spend for each one mathematically, that is your revenue and we organized all of our products around that. So when I. Was first. Coming up with our marketing strategy and I was interviewing our ideal customer profiles, which are generally the VP of Marketing or VP of E Comma. And I started speaking about the e-commerce 360 equation. They would say holy cow, that's my bonus plan. Ari, my bonus doesn't need to increase traffic by 10.

That's true, yeah.

Percent this year or something? So we knew that it resonated on a personal value, and you know, even though we're talking to. AstraZeneca or some other huge enterprise there's always. Human and it resonated with that human. And now we're speaking their language. There's a what's in it for me. There's a what's in it for the company. It's relative to their bosses and so forth, and they'll spend time with us and we can evaluate more what they need and find in our case, because we have a large suite of products, a product that solves. Today's needs and then maintain that relationship. We have a whole team we call customer success about. Understanding tomorrow's needs and then coming back and selling something else then too.

Awesome, I think. I mean this is this is a great learning for for for me as well, like in terms of you putting this whole equation and then and selling it from there because it's it's very difficult to position one over the other. And usually when companies grow then they do grow the product line, but they always have this challenge about what to position where. And so they always feel that it's the supply demand so. So you have. One product or the other? So I mean this is such. A brilliant approach.

There's a. Concrete real world world.

Example of exactly what you're saying, Joseph. So we had a customer who had great metrics and their conversion ratio on their website was 5% and industry wide. It was closer to.

It's all.

2 1/2% so they had great conversion, and they had other software companies. Saying hey, we. Helped you get this great conversion upgrade to our pro version of our product. It's going to be great. Which line has traffic and average order and conversion software? We were unique because we're able to say if you have 5% conversion in an industry that only has two or three. Percent do not touch it.

If you take any.

Change it's going to revert to the mean nine times out of 10, but you know what? 5% of the people that just stumble across your website? Buy something, let's get more people stumble across the website, increase your traffic. Or how about each one of those big buy something? Get them to buy more and put a impulse purchase on the checkouts. And there we're able to more easily understand the true opportunities for that site, rather than having to just double down on conversion and conversion till eventually you break it. And what will drive value for? The customer because we knew it was revenue that conversion that their true need was.

Awesome, I think this this is like one big value bomb that you just dropped says like it's really huge. I mean great, so switching gears now to the suite of products. So we we also spoke about you acquiring company. And so in terms of acquiring companies, what's the thesis for acquisition? So what's how do you go acquiring companies?

OK, OK, so we explicitly want to have multiple entry points into the market. That means having lots of products and be unable to find the right one to win a new customer. We also explicitly want to reduce our own customer acquisition cost. And we can do that through cross selling, selling new products into existing customers in addition to winning new.

Customers so when we.

Look at acquisitions and as a public company, acquisitions really has to be part of your strategy. Otherwise you should just be private and not. Public company expenses. We say, right? We care about a product that's relevant to our market segment. Does it help people increase traffic conversion or average order value on their website and a customer base? We want to have two reasons to buy a company. Is it a customer base that we could sell our other software into? Will it be easy to integrate the new company with our existing company and we structured our whole business around this acquisition strategy, so we on the integration side created a dashboard that allows us to not have to integrate the business logic in the database beneath every product we acquire. But to be. Able to just. Common dashboard and the dashboard. What does it do? It actually cross sells it informs customers about our other products and when they're. Gonna be useful. Now we're integrating customer base and driving value from them.

Right?

Today we are in a super challenging environment. I expect it's going to get worse before it gets better. I lived through the 2000.com bust and we were very successful in that. I actually had a a real estate company in 2008 so somehow trouble follows me, but we survived and and and right now we're in December. I was talking to companies offering to acquire them at three times. Revenue and being laughed out of the room. And now they're coming back asking for one times revenue, saying alright, I wish I would have taken your. Offer back then. It was a a a bubble, not a crazy bubble for valuations, but a bit of 1. And when we buy companies we're generally offering nowadays one times revenue. Last year it was two times revenue with 50% up front. 50% two years later, on an earn out that's directly proportional to the customer retention and that. Model has worked very well. We did two acquisitions last year. We're very acquisitive and explicit that we expect to do several acquisitions each year. Although this year we gotta wait and see what happens with the economy before we pull the trigger on anything.

Card itself, Speaking of acquisitions and Speaking of a suite of products. One there's there's a big you know belief that you have to be a platform agnostic technology agnostic, which means don't get locked into one ecosystem. So how do you battle that on an on an everyday basis?

Well, you know it is tricky, but at the same. Time you can't. Be all over the place as well so you do have to have some some standards as to what areas you feel you're competent in and will acquire in and other ones that you want. But we look first. And foremost at the at the value prop way before we start looking at the technical. So is the product. Marketed to similar customers that we market to mid market and enterprise businesses, does it help them drive revenue which is explicitly what we want to do? How does it and after we get through that we go into the technology and you know, I mean if it's put together with a bunch of duct tape and coat hangers and barely hanging together. We're not into catching falling knives here, we. Want to actually? Buy companies that are. Sustainable, but if it is a Java based product versus .net based product or PHP we. Would we would be fine with that and our? Engineers would be smart enough to figure out the new platform and do a great job and we would bring in new smart people that understood a different breadth of technology. So the lower level stuff is not something that would be a deal breaker at all.

Got it and so how? How much do you miss coding and the whole tech set of things.

Ohh I knew miss that you know when I was writing code every day and I'd get in. The zone and. I've got a 2 liter of Pepsi next to me and it's 2:00 o'clock in the morning and I smell like. Yesterday and I'm coating. Way those were great times and I I. I do miss. It now I actually find myself sitting inside a Microsoft Excel, creating way too complicated of Excel spreadsheets because my programming heritage.

Right?

But I think of building businesses through acquisition as an evolution of the. The development food chain, so to speak. When I was younger. I created company one line of code at a time. Then I started building teams and my I would do a good job at finding the right engineers and I'd work my primarily on a whiteboard, creating architectural diagrams and people would be writing those one lines of code for me. And following that. And now I'm at a stage where it's more about buying businesses and combining them and having really smart architects on the whiteboard for me and then really smart engineers on the keyboard for them.

Absolutely yes. Great, so coming back to this one intriguing question that I had so did you did did baseline? I mean sorry? Did Bridge line go public prior to you joining? Was this after you joined?

Right, no Bridgeline was public when I came in, so they went public beforehand.

OK, great.

We've done public offerings since then in different financings. Bridgeline that instance. Though was public already.

Oh, awesome. Great so wow, that's that's an interesting interesting pivot for a public company to actually change the whole stance. I mean that that's it in itself is a big big challenge. Right so.

Right, well, you know when. You're taking a company out when you're taking a company public. There's different ways to do it. You can use a a a regular IPO like people generally speak about, and in that case you're just raising capital from a bunch of people and and and listing on an exchange. You can use this back so this is a special purpose. Acquisition company where you're rolling, you're doing a reverse. Merger into that and you can. Do a shell which. Is kind of what we did on the Bridgeline side where you take a company that's undervalued, reinvest in it and and recast it in. A different form.

Got it, got it.

Richland is easier in that sense than other cases because it already had relevant customers and the services that it offered were. Many of them were relevant. I mean, we jettisoned some of it and sold off, even some of the business units, but but that was easier, and if anyone wanted to get on an exchange through a shell or an existing enterprise, I would suggest find 1 where you don't have to throw everything away, but you keep most of it, especially the. People, people are hard to find.

Got it. Great I I love our discussion on the the CAC and I think you didn't speak up the LTV. CAC to LTV ratio, but you did speak about CAC a lot, so I wanna I want to like delve a little. Bit on that. So how do you actually run a business where you can lower your CAC? And what are some of the ways that? You know, would would really.

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How do you actually run a business where you can lower your CAC and what are some of the ways that would really work so I know this is a very generic advice that. I'm seeking but sure sure.

Well, I think that understanding your customer acquisition cost your CAC is perhaps the most important part of creating a successful. SAS company and it is why so many SaaS companies can't get past four or $5 million in revenue. So your. So first of all. SAS companies generally have what's called a cash flow through, so their customer acquisition costs might be $10,000 and their lifetime value maybe 30 or $40,000. But that's over three or four years, so they don't even pay off their initial sales and marketing. Efforts for 10 months in that example, and they need to have the cash flow to survive that 10 months if they sell two or three products simultaneous. That dip of cash flow gets even deeper the more successful. You are the more. Money you lose for the first. Period of time. So you need to know your CAC to. Reduce the size that. Dip, so here's a couple of strategies. That I follow first. You need to be able to sell multiple products. To each. Individual customer winning a new logo. A new customer from scratch requires marketing. You need to advertise, go to conferences and so forth. Selling to an existing custom. Summer involves just making sure that your first product does what it's supposed to do, and they're happy. So you will. Pack for winning. A new customer is generally 20 or 30% of your lifetime value. But your pack for. Upselling existing customer is more like 5%. So it's much less expensive, right? So make sure you have multiple products and you can double down on existing customers. Second of all. We do what are called be everywhere programs. That means find a narrow niche like ours. It's the franchise industry. It's also B2B distributors in electrical supplies and saturate that space and don't go to the technology conferences and. Stand there next to all your competitors. Go to the places. Where no. One else is. At I had a real estate company. Once and we. Went to this big. Real estate market and we had real estate trade show and we had a booth. Nothing happened. Then we started going. We thought about who our customer was. We thought it was, oh, you know our customers. A lot of our customers are doctors, so we went to a radiology convention. Wow, we we made great sales. But you know who made the best sales? The guy that just hung out in the hotel across the street?

Because the real buyer.

Wasn't the doctor? They were still.

At the hotel. So we quit paying all. The money for the radiology convention and just hung. Up like. At the hotel in the same way when we're.

Right?

Selling into the franchise space. We don't go to Fran Tech, the big franchise technology conference. We go to the conference where there. Meeting their other suppliers for getting cheaper corn syrup for their drinks, and so we're the only software company there and now we can meet be everywhere in a tiny market you can win and reduce your cat if you try to be everywhere in every market you're going to just run out of money.

That's that's that's really. Using great So what are couple of metrics that you measure on everyday basis, Ari? What's important to you?

Well, you know the LTV to CAC. Is a very important one right? And it's interesting because you don't want to be. Too high or too low. So LTV lifetime value CAC customer acquisition cost for us we measure our lifetime value as the the gross margin. So this is the. Actual profit for the product itself is the gross profit over the lifetime, which for us is generally like five years. Of of each individual customer and if your cat to LTV ratio is or LTV to CAC ratio is a better way to to do. It is too low, so let's say that you've got a ratio of two, so you're in that case you're spending too much money on sales and marketing. Relative to your profit. On the other hand, let's say it's too high, so let's. Say that you're. A4 or A5. So you are making $5 in lifetime value off of $1.00 in sales expense. That actually is unhealthy as well. With that says is that. You should take. Some of that. Profit and do more marketing, more sales and grow more quickly. So the right ratio is generally 2 1/2, three maybe 3 1/2 right in that three range of $3 in gross profit. For every $1.00 in sales and marketing expense too low, think hard about your sales and marketing. You're as efficient as you. Should be too high. Invest some of that profit in sales and. Marketing and grow more quickly.

Got it awesome so I have some very quick rapid fire questions and let's see how you do it and if you do really well, I'm gonna send you. A hamper right? So let's see.

OK.

Great, so the the the first question is about your favorite book. What's your favorite book and why is it your favor?

Wow, OK, well I would use a business book and that book is built to last and that was one of the first business books that I ever read. I have always thought about making companies more effective than the competition, and that means knowing what effectiveness is and Jim Collins. Last, As for me, been the book I grew up with and I still build businesses around these principles.

Awesome, and what's your favorite SAS app? At this point of time.

My favorite app, well I guess. I'll go with the one that I use almost every day, which is zoom and it runs great on the on on my cell phone. It runs great on the computer and everybody else has it already installed so I can put together meetings really easy with the.

Got it and what's your favorite gadget?

Favorite gadget? Well, my favorite pastime is snow skiing. I love to ski and I for years had just put on regular earbuds and my helmet would compress them and it would be uncomfortable, but I'd have. To do phone calls. Once away, once in a while on the slope so. My wife, I don't know what brand it is. Got me a helmet that has built in Bluetooth headsets and I think it's.

Ohh wow. Great how many hours? Of sleep, do you get every night?

Wow, OK, now we're getting personal, yes? I'm I I'm I'm probably less than six hours. And it's not because. I'm a workaholic, it's just cause. Somehow I just. End up waking up and I've got something on my mind. It might be work it. Might be play.

But I I gotta get out of bed.

Totally get it. And and the last question is, how has? Pandemic changed your life, Ari.

Oh, you know?

It has brought my my family much closer together. We're forced to spend a lot of time together to discover what we really loved about each other, and it accelerated that bonding that I think is is really been very positive.

Awesome, so going back to the bridge line story. I just have one last question and then I have a last question of the podcast. There are two questions, right so? Alright, so so in terms of you know you building this whole martech suite. So what do you think is the future of martech? I I keep saying this. This whole Matic map that Scott Brinker you know brings brings out every single year right?

Oh yeah.

There's a big map and and and and there's a big canvas and so. So what do you see? Is is gonna be? The future of martech. We've seen we have seen personalization. We've seen a lot of different. Things coming out but.

Yeah, I think that martech is going to become increasingly prescriptive, and what that means is that you're going to have intelligence that understands what your needs. Are and prescribe solutions to you right now? If I have say that I'm a A VP of e-commerce and I need to think hard about what does my Commerce site need, what are the different solutions that are out there? How much do they cost? Must instead you're going to have intelligent marketplaces that just tell you hey, you need this. Here's why you need it here. Your different voices and then you'll be able to make those choices as well. It requires significant advances in artificial intelligence it acquires. Significant advances in analytics and measurement. There's a lot of investment and really smart companies that are growing in those spaces and the the marketer is going to. Be able to. In much larger business terms and not get pulled into the weeds of which individual technology will help me today?

Absolutely great. So this is a question I ask every single guest on the show and this question is, you know what's something that you wish you knew when you were 20.

Ah OK, OK, what do I wish I knew when I was 20? Well, I think that I grew up in a small. Town and I didn't understand how to work with and motivate and communicate and and really inspire team leaders within my teams so that I can infectious without the company. Great communication skills is. Absolutely critical if you're going to be a business leader, you have to be a. Great communicator and. I was an even stronger communicator when I was twenty. I would have grown even faster.

Awesome great. So it was really nice, you know, conversing with you and and and understanding you know the whole story of Bridgeline and the whole story of fatwire and and your story is an entrepreneur so it it is. It was really nice chatting with you and getting some amazing lessons from this whole. You know conversation that we just had. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Well, thank you Joseph. The pleasure was absolutely mine.

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