AI Founders Podcast

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the SaaS Universe Podcast today. Joseph Abraham, founder and CEO of SaaS, industry and Uber Saga has a one on one with Kumar Mayak, CEO and founder of Zinni. In the HR tech space, Zinio offers businesses an end to end platform for HR, payroll, performance, engagement and employee benefits. Zemio solutions have enabled hundreds of organizations to improve their key metrics by minimizing their employee onboarding time turnover ratios. Improved ESS procedures and helpdesk and much more. Sit back and listen in as Joseph explores Mayank, 's journey, enjoy.

It's so nice to have you on our show. I mean it's it's amazing to to get to know and we were just having this quick chat and I'm so amazed to know everything about what whatever you shared. I mean, it was very thoughtful human and I enjoyed our conversation that's leading to this whole podcast. So welcome to the show, my bank and very quickly. It's a ritual here on our show, which is to get your get a favorite quote if you have one, or something that motivates you to get out, get out of the bed every single day and go and fight a big fight out there because during a start up is not easy. We all understand. And that and so what's it one thing that motivates? You do you? Have a quote anything that you can talk. To us about.

Yes, first of all, thank you Joseph for hosting me out here. It's lovely being here and you my favorite quote would be get up, show up and never give up.

Wow, that's amazing Yep. Right, right get up. Show up and never give up. Awesome, awesome.

Every day you have to get up with the same thought that it's gonna. Some days are going to be the best days forward, other days would be trouble even to put your next foot forward and.

That's OK, that's why.

Absolutely, absolutely motivating yes. So very quick question to you is how did you get this courage right? I mean this this. This whole court is amazing, but I'm pretty sure that it has a story behind it. So can you just quickly share with us the story behind this this all.

Well, I think. Startups do not happen and entrepreneurship doesn't happen just by planning an idea. You have to actually become an entrepreneur in your mind first before you can juggle with the ideas like what I'm going to do. So I think it's not gone with it. I had already. This idea that I'm going to be an entrepreneur someday.

Right so when?

That part is clear, right? So the first thing you do is you pay off your education loan, right? That's what I did.

And the next day itself.

I jumped with a new loan, right? So I took a like hefty loan, some some the door. Worth plus and I jumped to. Start my own. And I'll tell you, it was not easy. The ideas did pivot initial days. Not as simple as it would look now looking back, but yes, they all you know led to where. We are today.

Hey, that's great so. Talking about where it LED, it led to Zimbio right? Look a little bit about simio. What's the product all about? Who is it for? What does it do and what's the problem? You're solving mayank.

OK. So Sonu is. A emirate fintech? It's it's a SaaS fintech hot in which we are offering. HR solutions to the SMB 's at large and not just in domestic but also to international customers where people use our end to end HR softwares including recruitment, performance, Okr, 's and something as niche as even KPIs, right and?

To the employees of.

These organizations we then go ahead and offer them financial solutions. And that is the problem we are. Actually solving right? So we are a complete end to end. We call ourselves the human experience platform, not just our employee because. Employee will limit the thought of the journey in a professional career, but I'm saying even for the personal life we want to be the end to end solution to it. Which means right getting ensuring that you get your salaries on time to get you getting. You know your performance. Getting measured right all the professional attributes to even helping you. All your day-to-day queries, like maybe getting a micro loan to pay off your house debt. Or maybe get an insurance to.

Cover your family and right right.

So in a way, we are like the one of the only. Financial access to the employee, right? So there might be employees who might not be under the umbrella of, say, banking ecosystem as you would know. Let's say domestically in India, less than 3% would have. Access to credit right? Then then we we become the one of the only providers of sick. The debt insurance and everything under the financial solution so, so that's a bigger vision. But again, it's a B 2 B 2 C solution. We help the organizations as well to offer the same financial products to their employees as well the employees to, you know, take up all the financial. While getting the best in house technology to work. Day to day life with.

Yeah, that's a that's a that's a lot of stuff right length and breadth, and sounds like an ecosystem. So how did you actually start with this whole idea, right? Mine so? It gets started. It sounds like you discovered a pain point somewhere, right? And how do you know it was interesting enough business? You know out there. When I said business, I'm Talking about the. Viability of it. So what led you there?

OK so I was a microfinance banker, right so when I was so I was managing a portfolio myself of a billion dollar plus when you are managing such. A big portfolio. You try to understand you, make cohorts, try to understand which are the segments. How do you lend it out to them? And then you get to this particular cohort in in which. Which is like the biggest you know the base right? So for customer base if you look at these assembly employees this was my Cashman thought right? So I started with a with a more fintech inclined.

So right?

You know the entrepreneurship journey itself. But to cater to that requirement, right to to help that employee we have to go through the organization. So we developed our own payroll and then we took cover the breadth more we we came out with our HRMS. And then the performance. And then eventually we went on to become a full scale HRMS. Getting end to end needs of an employee, right? And that's where the fintech began. But during the journey also we also learned where are the missing gaps that you know employees face? And yes, that's where the problem that we. Solved in the.

So what's the primary problem that that you found was so compelling enough that you felt, hey, this is this is amazing, I mean, so I'm just trying to like like get to that because a lot of times. And the reason I'm asking this question is for young founders, who you know who usually rush to, you know, solve a problem, right? So I want to understand like how did you really validate this this problem? And if you can share that with us, it will be really.

Yes, sure. So we are amalgation of our technology and a financial product offering to solve a particular pinpoint right to me. The pain point was the most critical element right? I wanted to give this. Let's say the the SMB employee. The complete journey, right? Not just the financial aspect of it, but also the technical aspects of it. That he should be able to get all this at the tip of the singles right? He has a if he has a smartphone, right? Why not give him all this at the click of a button, right? With that thought right? So the pain point was that there might be lot of financial products out there. There might be a lot of employee experience softwares out there, but what are you truly solving? You are solving the employees pinpoint and that's where your you know. So it's the pieces, right? It brings 2 words together and. Offering a unique solution that solves that particular pain point.

Hey, that's awesome so. Let's talk a little. Bit about your team right? I see that you are now a large team, right? But let's go back and understand like how. Did you build this? Team a little bit. About your Co founders and your team just to just to get us just for us to get to know about and the whole journey of building a team. As well.

Yes, we call the team our tribe, right? So for our tribe. The culture thing was very. Critical me and Ajay my partner. We come from a culture wherein we have always been given the space to innovate and we we made that as a culture that we would want people who are aligned to the vision who really want to solve the pain points that are SMB. Faces right, not just the user journey, but also like how softwares were supposed to be used. And Ajay and I had just kicked off like that, right? The day we came in we start building we got 2 of our knowns. Took a basement. You know how the startups. Work typically right?

Absolutely yes.

2 the 4 of US coding, you know ideating on the idea for one complete year we are just developing product like the 4 of us. That letter increased like 67 of. Us one whole year right? And and all bootstrapped. I mean maybe with much. Debt that I just told you. About right and then when the product. Saw the limelight. Like we suddenly realized. Yeah, we were one of the better offerings for the solution that we built, right? The entire HMS and there though they were legacy softwares we were competing against likes of someone with a vintage of 25 years, 30 years in the in the in the in the industry Indians has is a very competitive space but in 2 years. Time we have now grown to become one of the biggest in the SMB, HR, space and all that because of our team. The team that earlier started with. People, no recognition, even salaries were. Delayed, they stuck with us the journey. Itself is. I mean they can be. I can literally write novels on on the journeys we had. Every day was an experience in itself, but yes, they stuck with us and I'm happy to tell you that out of our founding team, let's say all the 15 people got all the 15 sisters with us.

Hey, that's yeah that's awesome. I mean that that's that's unheard of right? Because startup journeys are not easy and you know, people also are not clear about what they want when they come and join. But it's amazing to see that the retention is is is great out there.

3 years. Because we we ensure. That we are there for the people, right? We wanted. The team to dream the same vision. The dream, the same dream that we were dreaming and they came in because they really wanted to solve this problem. You know the problem that I talked about.

Absolutely. So when you hire Mayank, what do you look for? I I do understand that by this time you have processes to. Hire people, but. I still understand as a as a as a see you in a founder. You do have some expectations, So what is that? At the core that you expect from somebody who wants to join similar?

Well, actually I interview everyone who joins Jammu, right? Yes, so there's a 3 like process. There's a written test which your function you might be joining us.

Oh wow, OK.

Then there will be an interview with the functional head. So all the functional knowledge, all the IQ stuff gets tested. The only trait I look for apart from the EQ bit, is that. How culturally fit? He is and he is he. Where is he here really to solve the problem, right? Unless he is breathing the same air, he's dreaming the same dream. It would be very hard. To you know, work together right. So the culture fitment the team alignment. That is what I. Look for. And as I said that above all you you cannot be a great professional unless you're a great human, so. That that's my filtering criteria.

Absolutely. So I love the way you actually like. You're hiring for culture, which means that this culture is also all about being customer centric, right? So I'm just going to quickly change gears here and ask you about your customers. So how many customers do you have right now? Presently, like you say, your space is SMB.

So and we are over the 2 and a half years that we have been lined with the product. We have over 500 customers.

Wow, wow, that's that's that's amazing, right? So? Quick question, there is how did you get your first 10 customers? I mean, that's that's a journey you need to cross the chasm. So how? Did you do that?

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Quick question, there is how did you get your first 10 customers? I mean, that's that's a journey you need to cross the chasm. So how? Did you do that?

Well, actually all of them were Peyton streets selling by me itself. I used to take appointments, make the callings and actually travel over to their offices. Wait out there, you know, get a chance. Some days I wouldn't get a chance so I would come again repeatedly till I could actually crack. So the first 10 customers, you'll be surprised to know. Took us more than maybe 6 months to crack, but the next 90 came in the equal equal in the equal tenure. Yeah yeah.

Thanks fam. Got it got it. Yep, so can you share a couple of stories in the right in the beginning that really etched in your mind saying that hey, you are in the right like you know pursuit and this has been the right thing to do and there is some kind of validation moment of epiphany so to speak, that you felt that yes, I'm in the right space. In the right thing. Right in the early stage, right?

Well, there there are lot of moments. One moment I can recall actually is that we are part of an accelerator opeka so we are trying this. We were challenging ourselves on the. PMF because of course HR horizontal HR.

Right?

Is a lucrative space, but there would be a lot of people and why we do fit best. So we have. To validate that right and we are making these calls. As part of our tasks. So we made like some some 100 plus calls to our customers. You know asking them you know why ask why not somebody else and the answer we we got was was exactly the same point that I mentioned to you sometime back right? That lot of.

Right?

People try to push their softwares to us, right? The technology to us you are. Not here for the technology.

Right?

In fact, will be told we are not even technocrats, so I am an commercial by education, right? So if I'm here trying to, you know hand out software people see merit in in what is the bigger problem that this person is trying to help us solve, right?

Right?

There to help them help their employees, right, let me help me help me help you yeah.

MM.

Yes, so that that's how it went.

Right, so very quickly. What is the biggest challenge then? And the biggest challenge right now, right? So it's it's. A whole different shift and transition early stage is very different and then the growth is very different. So what is the biggest challenge right in the beginning and the challenge right now?

Apart from the fact that from domestic market we are looking to expand international being one. But the biggest. The biggest challenge I. Would say is. Getting dreamers like you, right. People who are really passionate about solving this pain point that maybe an employee faces right? And and I've heard, you know, varied. Suggestions to this, but the thought is that. You need to have the right empathy to actually get close to the problem solving right. So hiring always is the challenge for us. It was back then and it's still today.

Got it, got it. I mean it's always going to be a challenge because it's difficult to get somebody you know to tap into what you're trying to do right. So I totally understand that. So very quick question. You know, mind for you you. Know that I have. Is this whole thing? You need money and you need funding. So how did they actually go about raising?

To build.

You know funds in the early stage and you know what is the. Process like for you.

Well, actually we became profitable before we response, right? So one year I told you like we had a great debt so we had to make our SaaS profitable for the Fintech to kick in right? But for lending you need a lot of capital. So we raised.

Right?

The capital now. And our SaaS is profitable. And as I said, we are one of the biggest in the country and the HR SME. Space right? So our.

Right?

When we decided that we wanted to raise funds, we went about pitch. We we tried to explain this concept and it's finance is now a hot thing, but back then people had to be told about the concept that we are trying to do. Are you doing? Are you doing up in tech? Where where's the match right?

True, true.

Some 200 84 pitches where when we finally met. Hillary, who was our lead and. He he saw merit in what we are building, and he invested and and and.

I'm telling you.

Though we had angels, right? And these were the angels who are great thought leaders in the. Fintech space But the seed is where we could actually have money to. Now, as I told you about to run our benefits slash fintech business. And by the way, that is the date till today. I mean, I think funding will never be a challenge to us. And that's that's what I said.

Great so which leads to my next question which is like are you? Are you likely to raise in the future? And what are the macro factors that are driving, you know? That whole whole raise, by the way.

Well, the macro factor is of course I really want to see every employee in the country have access to financial products, right? I think access to credit access to insurance. They need to be fundamental rights. I mean, that is my core belief and I think that there are problems you can solve it. Technology, but then there are more problems that you can. Solve with money. So our thought of fundraises from the current base of 100,000 employees, hundreds of thousands of employees that we are, we would want to reach to maybe some millions and 10s of millions of employees and really call their you know, day-to-day, that's a bigger vision.

Absolutely yes. Wow, so I think that's that's that's that's a really compelling driving. You know thing to do, right? So I think amazing so. I mean, we're going to go very quickly to the next segment, which I call call it as rapid fire rounds, right? So you have seen this, but it's going to come like really fast and quick, but just to get to know you as a person, right? So is there any book that you're reading right now? My ink that. That you like to share any any book. Any blog.

OK so I have to set up my OK ask for my performance language system. So I was reading measure what matters by John Doe, but again that was for my product development.

Right, right. So what's the greatest learning from the book?

How well, of course. The thing is that the theory is very simple, right? People go about setting up these performance language systems and and and everything that they think is going to help the employee. But the truth is, you're not measuring anything. If you're measuring everything you're measuring nothing, so want to try some things, and that's where the concept of okr comes in that you actually measure what really matters, right? So you quantify everything. You set on the time limits. And you achieve like a winner, right? So if you have got. Your eyes clearly set on targets. You will achieve them in different whatever you know. Let's say the calamity comes or. Or any other challenges you would?

So it's going to be there even for the rainy day, so very quickly. What's that one metric that you measure at Vimeo that that really matters for you all?

Well, NPS.

Got it so you look at Net Promoter score so if people are going to like promote.

Yes, for the.

For the customers and. In fact we have NPS for. The employees too, which means using the software right? So everyone, if you're a B 2 B SaaS, if your organization that you have implemented your software and if they are happy it goes well for you. But for us we would also. Want to measure the end user of the software? So for us, the employee NPS. There's also a parameter.

Absolutely amazing, so any CEO that you're reading or following at this point of time. That who inspires you.

Well, I mean there would be lots of I'm. Following so this is hotspots co-founder right?

Yes, thank you. Yeah, I I.

OK, awesome so.

See his his obsession about where.

The final customer story lies right. He never talks about the technology though. Is the ctio. Right? Right, but he always talks. About what's the user journey and and you see their culture when he when he writes about the things that they. Do right. Yeah, that that's the top of my mind recalls.

Absolutely. And what's your favorite online tool right now you? Know tool app.

0I mean HubSpot indifferent? We, we we we breathe by. It everything from customer ticketing, marketing, sales we run. It over hotspot.

Awesome and quick rapid fire question number 4 coming your way is how many hours of sleep do you get every night?

Well, 7.

OK, great. And in situation married single kids.

Oh, single, right? That's right, that's right.

Oh yeah, I mean I. Didn't correlate that? OK, that was. A good data point.

Actually, when we. Started Simmu I was like I was getting like 23 hours of sleep and I used to be very cranky. But then I realized the value of sleep right? So ensure that I. At least take some out.

Great, so right now I mean where are you heading towards right? So I mean, I understand your vision is to see every every single person you know accessing credit and and I love the way you actually use the word fundamental, right? I mean, I'm not use. I've not seen anybody using that word as fundamental rights access to. To money or finances as a fundamental right. So quick question is as a product right? Where are you heading at this point of time and what's? The future like.

Well, if you look at what we have tried to achieve is that we are created a a great ecosystem for employing himself, right? I do not know if you know about these social credit scoring or or maybe a good citizen score that happens. In China, right? Right, So what we're? Trying to gives or rather create. Is an ecosystem. In which if you have been a. It if you have been a great employee. If you have been running a great professional career right in different which background you come from, you might be a giant or you might be a you know, one of the guards security guards. You should get rewarded for your your you know your behaviors, your. Professional career journey. And that's the ecosystem we want to build. So there's a great data lake that we are running analytics over it lot of technology coming to pieces over the SaaS layering which all comes together to ensure that. This employee right gets the access to everything that you know the same access that me and you have. Joseph, you know some 20 credit card companies calling us in a day and a lot of the technologies that we have access to. So let's say if you're a user on Vimeo, right, you can you can use features like.

Right?

Slack over our collaboration tool we have built. You can real time talk to your teams over the video chat you can. Gives Pats to your team. High fives measure performance. Walk in days and a lot of things that technology which was otherwise unaccessible to this segment right. So we want to pay the ultimate ecosystem player or rather the creator and maybe the. Facilitator of this entire ecosystem which has all the pieces from technology to. Finance to customer experience element and offer it to the SMB employee. Sorry that went on for monologue, but.

Hey, no absolutely fine no. So I was I was like thinking about all the checks boxes that I I've been looking at. You know that somebody would actually like offer it right? Because see when you talk about HRMS, what I've noticed mine is that people offer it more in terms of, you know. It's more like a comparative comparison narrative with the legacy software saying that we have this piece. We have this piece. We have this. Piece and it's all stitched together. Right, but no one actually solving for the customer. So I mean that that was one interesting thing that I picked up from this conversation, right? So it's more like, hey, it's it's more of we are more competitive because our pricing is low, but it's not more about. Hey, we are offering value and I think that's what brought a smile on my face. Hey all the checkboxes are like getting picked right so.

In case if I'm missing this, then later my team says that you you didn't promote them you enough. We are one of them out there.

Absolutely absolutely mine.

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Episode so I have like last couple of questions so the second last question to you is if you have to like advise something to early stage founder what would your advice be in one line or 2 lines?

OK, so. But first would be to make. When a shift planning before jumping in right, which means that if you are married, if you have got older parents to take care of, please at least get insurance. Have some savings so that nobody else suffers because of the journey that you have decided to go for yourself, right? So this I see missing for a lot of the. You know, even mature entrepreneurs who. Have gone through the. Proper journey, not realizing the caveats and the. You know falls in the journey, right? So it might also happen that you might have thought of a great, you know entrepreneurship journey for yourself.

Right, right?

But it doesn't pan out like that, right? And and they might be right, they might be lows, you just have to assure that you allowed ones are loved. Ones are taken care of. One piece. Goes back to my coat, get up, show up and never give up, which means that if you have thought of a dream right, nobody else will walk that journey for you. So figure out the product market fit if you think that you are actually adding value to someones life in different if this funding or not indifferent. The people supporting your idea or not indifferent if you are alone walking towards the bigger good.

Just keep walking, keep walking.

Awesome and so my last question to you. Mayank is what's something you wish you knew when you were 20? I think I'll put you on spot.

Yes, yes I was I. I think even in 20 I knew that I'm going to start, so maybe I could have saved something more for myself. But then comes the contrarian view in which you know you've got yellow. You only live once, so you also have to spend while you were young. So maybe I could have saved more for my, you know, struggling days that I didn't see coming and maybe I could have made more mentors, right?

Right?

I was always hesitating to reach out to people who could actually guide me late in the journey. I always thought that maybe I'm too junior in the heart. You don't think? Like that, right? So if. You are in 20s hearing this podcast. My only thought to you is. Reach out to people right? It is OK if you know people don't help right. Not everyone has got the same dream as you right? But then you will definitely meet. People who are. You know who are going to help? You out who are going to work in doing? For you and not. And it cannot be. They would be walking the journey with you, but maybe they can guide you through how to walk the journey right? So so just. Reach out to many people you can.

Absolutely. I think you also grow mature because not everyone. Is going to. Agree with you so you will also learn to accept different perspectives and and you know broaden your thinking right so that often gets missed because you're so self obsessed. You're young, right? Because you have a lot of passion, raw passion and so.

Yes, yes.

Yeah, I'll just add to this just a lot of people have.

Right?

Seen you know? So some of my younger cousins and some of their friends also would. We are dropping out of college because we are going to become an entrepreneur. And maybe you're.

Right?

Gonna start of our own. So even to set up, you need to have some knowledge, right? So as you said yourself, obsession should not become hindrance to your own learning curve. Learn before you start. Right, you need to. Be deploying some knowledge right. So first gather that.

Yep, absolutely. I mean No 2 ways about it. So it was really nice chatting up with you. Main come in. I mean, I for me I mean my high moments in this whole podcast was right in the beginning, right? Like, you know, get up, show up and never give up. OK like like a like a warrior like a true Spartan warrior right? So I mean that was very resonating other one what was?

Never give up.

Yes, yes.

But the other thing was resonating for me. It was you actually picked your whole journey from a problem that you saw when you were with a microfinance bank and but you went and pursued it. You really understood the problem from closer quarters. You have to. Pivot, you know? But you understood that this is the problem and the second thing. One high point that I was able to pick was solving for the customer right? So oftentimes you solve for yourself which. Was good and you also solve for people around you, which is also good, but again, solving for customers and oftentimes you don't know who your customer is. But over the years, you understand and you're able to narrow down and say this is my ideal customer profile and you're able to like solve for them. But I'm so happy and glad that you're able to like. Get that right and this is really helped in your journey, right? The 3rd thing was I loved the fact that you hire for culture, which often times I've been people hire for talent and you know culture often gets like you know missed out it's taking.

That length.

Back seat and which can actually like be disastrous for for someone. I also love the whole point that you know, I think the culture thing again came up when you spoke about Dharmesh and you spoke about what and culture is not just for for hiring. Culture is also for growth and also for. What you do for others as well, so it's not just internal, it's also outward. So what you have is what you ooze. Out right so.

Exactly, and I'm just telling you you. Can't as I said, I mean I. Was I've been talking about it more than needed. But I can't emphasize it enough that you cannot go on to create something remarkable. Something legacy, like if you're not really into it, right? If you're. Not dedicated if you're not ready to dedicate your life to that problem, right that you want to really solve that that. Employee is pain points and maybe. Make someone 's life better, right? Unless you have that rate of vision, you cannot create something remarkable.

Absolutely, so I'm just coming to that and and before that it was also more about, you know you. In the early days like holding your sleeves. Making those calls going in meeting so that you got your first 100 customers right? I mean it is not easy to get your first and then move to the next 90, but I mean that's the greatest struggle for any entrepreneur. But if you make it, then yes, you know that you have hit product market fit. You understand what the customer really goes through understand adoption child and. All of those things get ticked right? So it's it's amazing, but I think the greatest thing that really touched me very deep was your vision and your passion to to know to help people access credit. Those who don't have a credit score yet. So I think that is amazing because oftentimes we solve because we think technology can solve problems and I love the way you said technology and finance can solve problems. I think that really like was was a highlight for me. You know a primary key. In a moment, if I had to look back in this whole podcast journey that I had with you because it really resonated deep with me because there's this raw passion which still is there in you right? And it's still burning and and so that that is amazing to see because. That's what drives. You and I think it can, it's. A it's going. To be a full circle going back to your court. I think that's what makes you like like, you know, get up, show up and never give up right? So yeah, it's very nice talking to.

Yes, you've really got the hang of it.

You man I mean. Yeah, absolutely. So it's nice to be talking to people really passionate? I mean it's. So contagious, and I think I I am like so pumped up. You know, as I end my day here. So amazing to have this chat with me with you. My Angel looking forward to staying in touch and all the best.

And likewise to getting hosted by you the energy. Resonating as equal, yeah love talk.

Lovely lovely so all the best for the journey ahead at Simeo and looking forward. To staying connected.

Likewise, please stay connected. Joseph have a great evening.

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