AI Founders Podcast

Transcript

This is the SAS Universe podcast presented by Uber saga.

Welcome to today's episode. We're super happy to introduce to you and author, entrepreneur and speaker none other than sand. Someone has a. Massive list of achievements to him and if I go down listing each of them it. Will take the whole. Podcast to complete. So I don't even want to go down that. Rabbit hole. But here are. A few highlights. Some room is no stranger. To podcasts and you ask why? Well, that's because. He has a podcast. With over 100,000 followers called. Flip my funnel. He is the. Author of a couple of books like account based marketing. For Dummies and ABM is B 2 B. He has his own LinkedIn ABM course that you can learn from on LinkedIn learning. He co-founded a company back in 2014, which today is one of the best ABM software companies out there. It's called terminus. He is named one of the top 21 B 2 B marketing influencers in the world. So do I need? To go on well. In today's episode Joseph Abraham, the CEO of SAS industry, goes on to interview this. Extremely humble man. Now for the listeners out there, this is a throwback episode from last year, but a lot of what Joseph and Sangram speak about is very app for us today. Enjoy the show.

Thanks for joining us Sangram, and it's it's really nice to you know. Have you on our show? Thanks for for accepting our invite.

Absolutely man excited to it. I love some of the thoughts that you already have put together for our conversation, so let's dig into it.

Great, so we have a tradition and we start our podcast by trying to understand who are you as a person. So what's your favorite quote if you have one or a book that you want to talk about a bit, you know just to just to help us understand a little bit about how you think.

Totally well. One of my favorite books is is obviously the Bible. That's that's my favorite book, but if you go professionally, I love Patrick Lencioni he he has written several books on it and one of his books are is is around leadership. It talks about the 5 this dysfunctions of a team. And that is my favorite books.

Awesome, I mean I do remember, you know, reading the book long, long long back. I mean starting with trust and going all the way to results, right? So I mean a A well packed book, great Sangram. So just for our viewers. I mean if you can quickly share about how did you get fascinated about account based market? Thing and how did you really get into marketing? I mean how did it become a core passion for you and also a little bit about. You know Genesis of Terminus and the peak community. If you want to share and how it all happened, so that's like one strong story that we know how it all happened, yeah?

Right, so the the long stories I'll try to try to cut and get back into like a movie so hopefully just start imagining talking about. About this so and my bachelors masters in computer science. So it was what I. I guess I was supposed to do but I didn't realized even during my masters program the team that used that we had they would always have me do the presentation and they will do the coding. So I realized I'm one that means I'm a bad coder. Not because I'm a great friend, it was because I'm a bad coder. So I realized that, but I enjoyed the idea of communicating, telling a story, and and making people recognize and see words. In themselves, because it's. So important to do that and. In the process of. Like I got connected to that and since then I worked in a couple of companies like Deloitte Consulting. I did the big 5 that was really great experience and then I actually ended up as an analyst in a startup company here in Atlanta and I did not know anything about marketing. The only reason they hired me because they thought I would be good. Numbers and good with computers, but really what I learned in that was marketing is fascinating because you can test something you can change something. I think marketers are the only people who I believe can literally change the world. In many ways about Steve, I think about many after day you.

MM.

Think about Elon. Musk today you think about any of these? They they they really what they're doing is telling a story. Ultimately, they're they are having a vision of where they want to go, and they're testing it. They're moving it, they're pushing it, and I couldn't believe that, Oh my God today marketing can be used for. That purposes, but if you use it for the right purposes, you could change the way people buy, consume information and actually change behaviors. So I got really excited about it, so I took this startup role. I grew very quickly in that because I was just excited about getting to know people and getting to know what. People and that led me to become run marketing at Pardot, but there's a. There's a slight thing that I want people. To recognize here. Joseph, because during that time one thing I felt did consistently that I hope most people are doing now more than ever is having. Assistant relationship with people that are outside of your sphere so that even when things change, they know you and you know them. So I got the 2 that running marketing at Power app because I knew the power out and I would be spent every 3 months. I would just set up coffee with that person. I would just meet up with that person. I meet that person. A mentor and it wasn't. I didn't realize this was going to lead me to run marking it powder at some point, but that's what led me to be there. And so a lot of people think it's it's an overnight success. Or people think that, oh there it, he he or she was at the right place at the right time. Yeah, but there was a lot of right place at the right time before it actually became true right place at the.

Right?

Right? Time and I I see a lot of lot of folks not taking the time to be mentored or even mentor others just for the same exact reason. So. So that led me to run marketing apart and and. Going back to the. Very first question you asked, like what got me into ABM for accompanist marketing, folks who are not familiar. That was because. When I was running at marketing marketing a product we got acquired by exact target and Salesforce, I was at Salesforce for 2 years and I realized one day there was this whole conversation where we. Generated tons of. Leaves in marketing and my sales leader came to me Joseph and he said saying, I'm great job. You and your team did a phenomenal job. You guys created 10s of thousands of leads, but here's the thing. Can you start generating 1000 or I think you said 2000 more leads next month? And I was like, yeah, I'm like I said I just sunk in my seat just because like Oh my God have to do that I'm nothing but a coin.

Right?

Operated lead machine.

Right, so true.

Yeah, there's more to me and more to my team and. More to what we do as marketers than that. And that led me to figure out Terminus and and I can jump into that that cause there to just reflect on the story. So far all the way to Terminus.

Right, awesome and so I mean, how did permanence happen? Sangram, I mean if you can help you know, especially the early stage founders just to help people understand the context of building a new company and how did that happen.

Sorry, so for. I'd say this every time like I'm not I I joined the Founders 6 months later and became. A Co founder so. I always tell like I got in many ways. I feel like I'm a a fake entrepreneur because there are a. Couple of people who. Are actually started 6 months before I. Join them, but again, going back to the right place the right time I. Saw them doing a pitch. Atlanta Tech Village where it's a place in Atlanta where a lot of startups will pitch and I saw their pitch and I'm like and that was probably during the same time when this thing this episode happened with me. I was kind of flustered and I went and listened to them and I said. Oh my God. You guys are talking about this. This is phenomenal, but it's a service. That you're selling. I think it's. A product and they're like well, why don't you come help us build it and I'm like, well, nobody asked me that before I. Wasn't really looking. That and they're.

Like do you really?

Feel that this is a pain point because they were all both Georgia Tech grads. They both understand understood technology and business, but I'm was passionate about the problem. We could solve and who we solved it for that was my gig. So we just they made an offer. We thought about it and. You just went back and said, you know? What this let's do it, and. I moved from Salesforce to Terminus as a co-founder because I said if I'm coming in leaving this big opportunity, I need to come in at least as a co-founder. Someone who could. Drive this business forward and then see where we go so that honestly was one of the best decisions I made because. I could have gone and got another job, but I think in turn because we got and started terminus without really knowing much. I think it allowed me to to extend myself, grow myself in ways that that I never thought about and I have to give a ton of credit to my wife for this because at that time. We just had our second kid our daughter Kiera. She was like. I think 5 or 6 weeks old and I literally come home one day and tell her like hey look, you know I met these 2 guys at a bar. Great conversation, I think we're gonna start a. Business together we're going to. Join and I'm not going to make much money and that means. You need to go find a job. Because I don't know. How we would survive after that and? That's it and. And you know that was a straight conversation. It took up 23 weeks. Of debating back and forth but I remember my wife telling me this that. I know if you don't do this you'll regret. And and I don't want you to regret that. How about this? You have one year to prove this thing has legs and if you show me legs you can do it. Otherwise you're going to find a real job.

Right?

Now Joseph, that was probably the best thing that could have happened to me because it gave it did 2 things to me.

Right?

One, it made our relationship very clear like she's there doing things for me and taking the risk she went and found a job and she was working like literally like 2. Months into, you know. After delivering a baby and with 2 kids and. Be much money. That's one and the second part was that because she gave me an year worth of time, we did unrealistic things. We did stuff like we did 4 flipped my final events in the first year we did. We did so many unreal things that most companies were doing 4 or 5 years because we just realized that I realized, at least at that point, that all I. Got is one year. So I better make this work, otherwise this is not going to happen and and I think that puts so much fire underneath me that that I hope if if that wasn't the case, I don't know if I would have done some of the things I did.

Well, that's a that's a great story. I mean, I mean, if our listeners are listening and then it's it's, it's really great to know because you also need an ecosystem to support and that really makes the magic happen. So I mean shifting gears here Sangram in terms of, you know, early stage SaaS companies. A lot of them. You know a focus you know on on getting the right kind of logos and accounts, and that's pivotal for them. But most of them really struggle and. I mean, I've seen it, you know, for various reasons, but what are some of the some of the common reasons that you've seen them struggle, and what can they do about it?

From a startup perspective or just yeah.

From a startup perspective, from a startup perspective.

You know one thing in many ways I feel like people have to realize that not all startups are success. So it's OK to fail. I mean I I had a couple of other, you know, moonlighted startups that didn't work on the back end. But then there's another thing that you mentioned. You talked about. A good ecosystem. I think that's that is very. Important for you. Is to know that you have family that supports you. You have people that you know that can support you. You can. You may not have all the answers, but your problem is very clear. But one thing that is above all that I think that allowed Terminus to actually help create a category and and where it is right now, is because we care more about this problem than anybody else. I think that was that was the number one thing that. Kept going like you know what and what's the problem? The problem was very simply, we stated it. Over and over again, less than 1% of the of the leads down into. Customers that funnel is broken. There needs to be a better way and we care more about this than anyone else. Or how do we show we care more about it? We wrote books. We created podcast. We created conferences that was vendor agnostic. We did everything to show and make people part of the community. To say we care more. About solving this. Problem than our own, you know. Stock price. Or whatever, so that allowed us to grow. So I think a lot of times what I see companies, especially startup founders do, is like they make it all about them. They make it all about their product. They make it all about like their their mission which which may be inside in as opposed to outside in view of it. So I I think that is the part that I see many founders and early stage starts struggle with and I my my like I'm I'm an advisor for several companies and I would advise them always and run. This is figure out a problem market fit, not a product market. And most people don't really do, you know, take it as the people who just think about that as as a phrase, because a lot of times you will look at product market fit, which means you're trying to get your product in as quickly as possible to as many people as possible and see that if it's predictable, revenue sounds great, but that might happen. What's really important to recognize? Is there a problem? Market fit now. What's the problem? Market fit? A problem? Market fit is when you say hey, I'm putting a conference together on solving this problem and 300 people show up. That means you have a problem market fit. Now you can go and create a product that supports that problem and that's why we didn't have a great product or fully realized product. When we launched terminus, what we had was a clear problem. That we got lots of people excited about.

So true, I mean, it's interesting like you know to also you know to to unpack this and and if you really, really see from microscopic point of view, a lot of times I think founders do not interact with customers right? I mean they actually have a go to market. Program in place, but it what it lacks is the the market analysis and and selecting the market and and understand the complexity of it and and bracing up for it. So, So what are some of the things that that founders can do in that direction before they go and hit their go to market?

Well, the first thing laugh. And there are 3 or 4 things that come to my mind right now, so let me just go through. One at a time on. That you do a very interesting phrase that you know I'm working on, which is understanding go to market.

Right?

Right now as I'm working on this as my 3rd book, it's I've interviewed VC 's top VC, 's that have helped companies to become Unicorn I have which means billion dollar valuation. I have interviewed CEOs like CEO of Outreach and G 2 and others to figure out how did they become that. And how did the go to market change from when they had $0 to now 100 $1,000,000 in revenue to emos and CRO 's who are on the front lines to execute it? And what's interesting Joseph about that is that. Your go to market strategy. It continues to evolve as your company evolves and a lot of times people over engineer them in the early stages. So what I mean by that is the reason some companies fail is because they try to do all at once. And focus on many different things at the same time and what I'm realizing more than anything, is that all of these leaders that have become very successful in building their companies. They're ruthlessly prioritizing one thing. One and only one thing. So for example, for. Plus we knew how to build a community better than anybody else, great, we focused on that. We made that our mission for the first 34 years of our organization. The same thing with Hotspot creating inbound sales force grading Dreamforce you think about drift creating hyper growth like you think about all the category leaders. They figured out. Our community is very important, so they went and built a community that is separate than their product and made sure that it so that maybe you think about slack. You think about Intercom and all of these different companies. They figured out that they can create a really exciting simple ecosystem that allows their product to grow, and it's easy to use. It's fast. People can jump in and. Oh, so that's how they grew. Companies like Superhuman and I use an email app called Superhuman their, their founder and their company focuses ridiculously on the simplicity and the speed of how quickly emails can be opened up. Click through return, change, redirected, reschedule all those things can happen in a flash. Within an app as opposed to going through 1,000,000 emails that we all get in our Gmail Box or Outlook Box. So I guess where I'm going with all this is that what is your one thing? That is a hard question for founders to agree understand because we all are have the shiny object syndrome where oh, they did that. So let's do that. They figured out, but you have. To like literally shut yourself. Your eyes down and and get to a point where say what is the one thing that we're really great at. Once you figure that out, you double triple down. Quadruple down on that one and you will see that the fruits of it not immediately. But in many years to come.

Absolutely, so. I mean, you're the right person to ask this question, which is about creating a category. So I made a lot of SaaS founders in quite in the early stage who talk about wanting to create a category so they talk about being the the the zero in the category, right and and being the leader of the pack. So do you think it's a good trend? Because it's kind of become a trend these days to say I don't have competitors and what building is totally unique?

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Do you think it's a good trend? Because it's kind of become a trend these days to say I don't have competitors? I mean, what building is totally unique? I mean, what's the point where? You really realize that you truly. Are building a category. Because a lot of times you could be delusional about it as well.

You know, that's a that. That's a very interesting questions because I spent a lot of almost every week I spent to some CEO, some founder or some. We see who is actually asking the same question around. I want my company to be a category leading company and my number one thing is that is to get them to really think that it is one. Of the hardest thing you would ever do. So Are you ready? And they're like. Well now we mean they created. It we can do. That I'm like OK. The reason they created it is because they're still sticking with it. Is this your 3 month strategy or is this your lifelong strategy? And when you start pushing back on that, they would realize that Oh no, we don't think this is just an immediate. Jerk and the reality is that every category leader is someone who's actually being almost an evangelist for it. Which, interestingly, is my title as well it here. But you think about Marc Benioff? Can we imagine anything but how? He evangelizes sales force? That's why they built the category you think about Steve Jobs, same thing. And we imagine him doing anything. And then that absolutely not you think about you. Think about from a tech perspective, but you can think about. Even people like. You know you think about Mother Teresa like would we think she would do anything other than that? It's impossible. So who are these people they are ultimately evangelist, so if you're a founder or CEO in the company, you need to recognize that. That's the rule that you're signing up for, which means you're going to stop talking about your. Which means you're going to focus on influencers and analysts and their relationships and helping them move forward. That means you're going to pitch a new narrative that may not connect directly to your product today, but. In future it. Will and so most operator, CEO, 's or founders? They struggle with this. And I push back 9 out of 10 people and get them to realize they're not fit to do a build a category. And that's OK, that's not a problem. That's OK, that's a that's actually a great thing that we figured out that you're not ready to do that. Now go and make Ruckus. In the existing category and stop moving around trying to create a new one because you already know what to do there. But if you are going to create a new category, I think you need to be extreme. You I called it like the 4 things the peak actually. The peak word actually came from that which is having a picture of success very clear like this, where we want to go. E stands for extreme focus. You're so focused that that is the one thing that you want to go and do, and that nothing can stop. You're should come, you're signing. Up for lifelong. You're authentic about it, which means you will never put your company over the community, just not what you're going to do. That's something that you have to sign up for. It's very hard as you raise money and as you have a board it's going to get increasingly hard for you to do. And you're gonna do that case for kindness. You're going to actually employ that as part of your organization. The peak framework really is the picture of success, Extreme focus, authenticity and kindness, and what's interesting Joseph about that. Most people are good at P&E. They're like OK, I get the vision, we can build it and we can be focused on it where they miss on the last 2 being authentic. About it with they're being kind about it, which means they will slap their logo on top of the community and then now you know it's gone. They would try to sell within the community and then you're not authentic. You're not kind to them, so it's a it's a continuous challenge within each other that you have to sign up saying this is what I want to do. And very few founders of companies can actually muster to do that.

Wow, I mean, that's that's. That's really nice because there's also this, you know, the sight to it, which is vulnerable and you gotta be there. So I mean. It's it's interesting because my my next question is more about building a category you know takes a lot. You know, in terms of also building a community, and I I do see that you're building a great community. Peak and and and it's it's interesting to know what peak stands for. I mean it. It's it's really nice. To know so. How did Pig start Sangram and and what's your vision for P?

A couple of things. You know it. Start right in the middle of the pandemic. A friend of mine, Judd and I, we knew know each other for years now and he's an incredible recruiter. In the out there in the world, he hires emerging CMOS and CMOS and I get question all the time. How do you become a CML? What skills do I like? And and we were like, you know what? Why don't we just? Build something that helps people figure that out. So we started peak community to just share our knowledge and get and very quickly a lot of people really wanted more on it. So we created 2 premium groups. As you know, emerging CMO Group and CMO group within that where every week there is an event that is specifically. For you to figure out how to become a CMO at some point, that means you will see how CMOS do board deck like last like literally yesterday. Was an event where 2 CMOS joined the ECMO. All the people who want to be a CMO one day and showed them how to do a board deck. How to present in a board meeting what questions to think about. How do you? What questions do board? Ask how should the relationship with board will be something that a marketer, unless they're in a C level, would never have access to. We're trying to create that in that group and so it's it's become like it came out of a a need that Judd and I felt we need to have around us. And because we can't mentor so many people, one on one we need to do that. Scale and we need to bring more people in it. And let's not make it about us. Make it about the true community. So I think as you know, it's we do once a month or twice a month. Events that I run, but the majority of every Friday there is another event that's happened that is run by the community in the community so it gives people an opportunity to show off. If people give the opportunity to be on radars, people are actually finding jobs. Somebody in the emerging CMO got hired as a director of ABM. In this by the CMO in the CMO Group. So all these things are. Just something that we always imagine will happen, so it's pretty cool to see it come.

Absolutely I. I'm also pleased to be part of the community, so it's it's nice to know. I mean, what you're doing because I do see them at close quarters, so I'm going going back to the question again in terms. Of I I've. Seen you building communities over and over again. You know, as part of your journey. So what are a couple of things are probably 3 things. If you can share. Foundational to building a good community that can really help early stage founders set in this have a set direction in in that sense to to be able to also like make it as their core agenda of what they're doing.

Well, one thing that I you have heard me say it before, which is without a community, you're simply a commodity.

Right?

And and I want people to start get hold of that as a statement because your product will be replaced. Somebody can build a faster, cheaper product if you are. If you know what the how that works, because that's exactly what you're doing. If you're building a new product to make it. Better than others. So the only thing that will keep you ahead of all of these people, or at least become a barrier for you would be a community that truly believes in. Do what you're doing, and that requires that 4 elements of the peak. Framework we talked about. But to answer more specifically your question, what do you really need? And these the 3 things that. I'm about to. Share Joseph. People are probably going to roll their eyes because they would say, well, those are of course you need those but. The question is. How much time do you spend in building foundation for those 3 elements is going to be the the reason some people are going to really get a lot out of what I'm about to say and get nothing. So I will. Be curious little later on and tell me if they like it or not because I love love engaging on that. So that 3 elements that help you build the community or is trust, safety and care.

Right?

Trust good game care so can people trust you goes back to being authentic around it that you're doing what you're doing it genuinely because you care about it. As I said, some of the people you know that are that you can trust. Just think about make a mentalist of 2 people that you trust right now and the reason you trust them because you know that's what they stand for. There's no way. They would do anything different. That's why you trust them. The second is safety, which is people right now, especially in the current environment. People want to feel safe, and so that's why the peak community. The reason it's paid and it's locked in is because you want to create a a safe community there to drive, drive business outcome, and then the last one is that you really care. And that that is the part I said. The reason I think Terminus has done some of the things it did is because we truly cared about the problem. More than anybody else. So if I. Make if somebody feel somebody can create a community where they seem to be caring more about the community. Then then we didn't do a great job. That's something that will always keep me up at night. There's a reason. Why we do? Thursday spotlight in the community. Because we want to show we care about the community and the people, and we're recognizing the people that because those those 3 are trust, safety and care and there's another part to all of this. Which is I was listening to TD Jakes TD Jakes is a is, you know, is a filmmaker pastor. He's done so many different things in his life. He he was saying this yesterday that the most important element of leaders. Is actually the fact that the people that are you are surrounded with those people feel that they are recognized. That's how you build a leadership, and that's how you create relationships that they're recognized. So you know, you think about you, know husband and wife like. If you don't recognize each other like soon they'll be having a. Tough relationship, right? Same thing with with your employees. If if your team doesn't feel like you recognize them, and that doesn't mean you give them a kudos all the time, but recognizing, hey you did a great job there, or oh this so and so is actually responsible for this is the recognition that we really want. Ultimately in in every community that that we are part of. So if we if people can think about trust, safety and care as the key elements to drive their business forward. Very simple words, but a combination of these 3 words is very powerful.

Awesome, absolutely. I think I mean the whole idea. Of trust safety. Care and recognition. I think it does does really really matter. I mean, I don't think it's it's it's. It seems obvious, but. I think. It's it's it's one of the most difficult things to do because you only earn trust. You know you can't force trust and so that's a process and you know my mentor is to say something very interesting is to say that any relationship that's strategic. Is lost the whole meaning of the relationship, because then it tends to, you know, become more in terms of you know.

This this this.

There's there's an element of of you engineering the whole relationship, and so there's no authenticity and it it actually leads to a big disaster. You know I mean trust, safety and care. You know, it's easy to say, but I think it's it's. It's one of the hardest things to do. And definitely you know it, it does make you know make for the right foundation to build, but I'm I'm just gonna like, you know go one one level deeper before I move to the next. Question which is. How do you really feel into trust? You know, because it's it's. I know you. You spoke about recognition, but what are? What are the things that. You know that you have done that, has helped you see that it it's. It's built trust because again, it's about really, really an authentic relationships. It's easy, easy. To say that, but I'm trying to look at it more from a point of. View of practice right? What do you do?

It's a very important question, so I'll I'll. I'll give you a few examples that might that might foster some thinking around this because it is such a lucid thing that you have you can't fully measure it, but you know it when you feel it and see it. So for example, uh, one of the best people talk about like on on from a reviews perspective or a community perspective. When we started slipmat fall as a community, we never made it about Terminus. So every single time I would do a keynote. It would, it wouldn't. Even mention the name terminus in it, even to when we do a flip my final conference. We do not have a product session and we do not have a product pitch and we. Do not have. They brought a kina. So it it it has truly stayed true to the community, saying that this is a community, and on top of that we invited every year all of our competitors to come and actually speak on. The stage now they sometimes pitch their product and we like you know what we don't want you to do that and it will actually, you know hurt you in the long term. And that's exactly what happened. The people are smart, people feel and understand that we don't need to. Marketing is not about making people do things that you don't that that that that you can manipulate them. Marketing is to inspire and. Where's them so? That's all I think about. So we made sure that every time we did a flip we did about over 10 now and every time we have done this conference, we are doing the keynote that does not include our product or anything like that. We invited our competitors on the stage to do a keynote as well and we asked them not to do it. Do anything like. That we would. Be a booth just like every other. Out there in the at an event trade show that you go so that is a form of how we make sure that we are true to the community. Now if that is something that people have a hard time swallowing, that's another cue for you that maybe category building is not something you might want to do.

Well, that was that was like you know, that was like like straight as an arrow, right? So great. I mean it's it's nice because it's it's good to get, you know straight answers like this and. And so I mean coming back to turbines you know. So just want to talk a little bit about it. So what's your typical customer look like in terms of you know, size and company?

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I mean coming back to turbines you know, so just want to talk a little bit about it. So what's your typical customer look like in terms of you know, size and company? And I have a curious question as a follow up, did you use Terminus as a platform to go get your early customers?

ABM, as you know, and. As people who if they want. To just quick primer. At ABM is a strategy account. This marketing is a strategy, not a tool. Not a technique, as many new sessions I do every week with tons of companies that are speak at. I do a full month graduate sessions. Maybe sometimes I do a workshop with them. On this we bring their entire marketing and sales team and the sea level. Executives and walk them through this so they come out of it, knowing oh that's what it means. That's how it should be done. What's what's interesting about all of that? Is that because it's a strategy you don't really need a technology to do that. So if you think about it, let's go back to the flip phone as an example. When we started that as a conference, we knew who to invite to that Community. We knew who should be part of that community. They may never become our customers, but we know they're our target audience, so they were midsize companies. Marketer director level marketer coming into it. Who actually has experience in marketing automation platforms so they know marketing? They know Mark Tech and now we're we're helping them reimagine. What the new world. Might look like in the B 2 B world. That's that's who we were going after, so we literally collected a list. Of 1000 companies in each location we ever did that conference like either Boston or Chicago or San Francisco or Austin. Wherever we went, we would actually have 8000 plus company names that we know are our target audience and we would invite them now if other people show up. Great, but those are the ones that we, as a company focused on because we know if we. Can change them. And if they would buy and they become the early adopters, that will change the entire economy around the countries marketing. So we focused on them. So if you think about it going back to. Account risk marketing is. A strategy we didn't need tools to do that. We just need to figure out what these companies that and go. After them, that is the number one step. In the book ABMS B 2 B, which is targeting the right companies? As opposed to. Doing that later on, which is what happens. A lot of people create content and then do the promotion. We did the reverse of it, that's. What Adam is. You start with who you want to go. After and then create content for them so that it's connected.

So who's the typical customer? For for Terminus and in terms of size and company and what's the average contract value like for Terminus?

So today we rode 1000 customers and majority for customers are either in mid market and enterprise level. Typical deal size. I can't really get like give you exact number because we acquired. I think you you know this Joseph, like you know we started in 2014. 15 and we have acquired 4 different companies since then, which is another big lever that we leverage that not only build community but also not try to be so egoistic that we think we can build everything by ourselves. We partner where that we bought when we could and we're building that we. Are great at, that's how that's our philosophy overall, so we acquired as a startup company. If you think about it, 6 year into running and we already acquired 4 different companies. We acquired 2 companies last year during the pandemic so. We've been really. Hyper focused on it. Where everybody zigs we zag is kind of how we look at it. So because of that, it's like depends. If somebody wants to come in and just have a chat platform or analytics platform, they can probably run it for 3040 K annually. If somebody wants the entire enchilada, then you know that's obviously over 100 K and stuff, so it. But it's all SAS, it's you know, it's a recurring revenue business. It's it's pretty awesome to have. Now over 1000 customers with 250 people in the company as matter, I think just this year. I think we have hired 18 people in our company. Sorry, and when I say this quarter, sorry, not this year our quarter ends in January. So in quarter we we have not over 18 people in our company. Which has been really. Cool wow.

Awesome and so? What are the good? I mean the the the basis for this question is more in terms of trying to understand what is the go to market strategy and if there's a is a playbook. That early stage found this could adopt to, so that's where I was going with that question. So you know, is anything that you feel that could apply from Terminus Playbook for early stage. Sound is that that can help them in the early stage to go. And have a very strong go to market strategy.

Well, I'll give you another framework. If people want to write it down, I call it the move work. I'll I. I think in framework, so I apologize if people if it's not framework, I cannot apply it, it cannot be scalable, so it's not.

Right?

Able to do it. So I try to think about things in framework so people can apply it and customize it if they need to. From their perspective. So the frame that I'm calling is a move framework which is know your market that you're going to go after. Figure out what that is, but not just ICP and total addressable market like Tam, but actually TRM which is total relevant market that you want. To go after. So figure that out. That might be an industry that might be a location that might be regional that might. You know might might be type of size of the company, so whatever it is you figure out you're relevant market that you can go after, so it's a very small segment. Not everything small segment, so market. The other part is that. Operations, this is where you can go crazy early on, but you shouldn't be, because if you're like, let's say you're 3040 $50,000,000 company. Now you have revenue operations team and you have systems and intent and data and all that stuff. But if you're an early stage, you really need to know is that operationally. Here are my 5 metrics that I want to track. That's super important to know those that's operational. The velocity now density V is very important because velocity is the most important thing that makes or breaks a company. The reason I say that is as you grow, how fast can you hire people? How fast can your sales team sell close deals? How fast can your customers see ROI of your product? The answers to those 3 questions will change the mechanics of your organization. It will tell you how much more money you need or how fast you can grow. If those things are not predictable and repeatable, then your company is not going to be scalable. So velocity of employee onboarding to customer onboarding. Sales ramp very important. Many different areas of that and the last one is for enablement, which is you may have from a go. To market perspective. You may have a great strategy. Let's say we don't like we don't expanding in yet. We want to expand. In in APAC, whatever might be, you may have a great strategy, but if you're not enabling. The sales enablement for enabling sales marketing enablement for making sure marketing is creating the right things for it. You don't have all these elements from a customer success perspective, making sure that you're going after the right customer expansion initiative. You're going to really lose. Velocity you're gonna. It impacts everything else you're gonna have lesser velocity you're going to have your operations is going to be crummy and your market is. Going to suffer. So those are the 4 elements for anybody at the start up all the way to. I'm talking to VC 's who have become who have helped companies go billion dollar in valuation as see those 4 elements. As one of the key areas where people can create their maturity curve and see where they are on market operations, velocity and enablement.

Wow, I mean I love it. I mean I love frameworks in. I mean it. It's it's really nice to get 2 of them in in the show peak and move right. So yeah, right? So I'm wanting to like. Also understand just one quick thing as a follow up.

There you go.

And uh, and then also understand a little bit about, you know your significant significant learning at this point. Of time, but before that. What are the couple of like marketing metrics? Is a non-negotiable for early stage founder that that person can't miss on his dashboard. His are her dashboard.

Oh man, oh very good. Very good question this. So in early stage I think last. Companies over engineer. A lot of these things. All you need to know is what's your revenue look like? Is it up and out that almost 3 or 4 metrics? But it's like revenue. Is it going up or down? Something that I think most people are doing. Regardless of it, because that's how they look at it. The second. You're this is the part that people start figuring out is like what is your profit? Is there a profit in it? And a lot of times people don't know how to calculate that and and figure that out with figuring that out is going to help you. And then the 3rd part which will help you figure out how much money you need. Is profit per customer. Not extremely hard, because you might think that this is really, really crazy, but it's really whatever is the profit and the number of employees you have. That is, that's how you calculate profit per customer. But those 3 metrics are super in. Because revenue tells you you know how fast you're growing as a company, your profit tells you, like can you continue to grow at this scale, or do you need to raise money? And the 3rd thing is that, well, how does your operational efficiency look like? If if you think you need more money because you're not making as fast and your cost per employee is very high, then you need to figure out what's. Where to cut or we're doing best? So those are the. 3 main metrics I see one and 2. Maybe all track. I don't see many companies tracking the 3rd one which can change the change. Again, the economic engine of the company.

Wow, so I mean it's it's brilliant. I mean coming from a CMO, I mean usually you know they they tend to to to, I mean talk more on the lines of MQL, 's and so on. And so forth, but.

N equals and SQLS will be dead in the next couple of years David said to create marketing and sales to be to keep each other accountable to align. And I, I think a true B 2 B companies shouldn't be doing that unless you're doing a transactional business. You really shouldn't be doing that anymore, they were. Related to literally make sure that marketing is sending a lead and lead is followed up and like if you're doing. If you are going after the right accounts that both teams agree on. There is no SLA you. Should be jumping on it right away. You shouldn't be working on anything that sales doesn't care about as a marketer, so I think those metrics were created as a fail safe, but people have used that as a crutch. Right now.

Absolutely. So what? What's a one top significant learning you know in this phase of your journey? And I'm just going to follow up with the last question as well. If you have to go back in time. What's the advice you would give to the 20 year old Sangram significant learning at this point of time and then go back all the way back back in time machine? And what would you tell Sangram?

Has been.

Well there are.

There there there's a quote that I put in my 111 newsletter. I send out every Sunday or Wednesday is is that being intentional is more important than being brilliant? And I learned that the hard way. I thought, being the smartest person in the room is something I should always strive for. And I thought if I'm not smart, what's the point like I should figure this thing out. And there are things that I can, but what I realized is you grew up, especially as you grow your organization. Is that what more important is being intentional about it than being brilliant? So you may have 50 ideas and you go after all. Yes, and then you you'll just scratch the surface and all of them, but if you're intentional, you'll pick 2 of them and go crazy with those 2 and make a mark. Make a dent in the universe so I'm realizing and it's hard for me personally not to think about because I'm afraid of God. Think about 50 ideas, but I have to swallow my pride and tongue and. And make sure that I keep my team and everybody focused on the 2 things or one thing or 3 things as opposed to putting a new idea every single day to them.

Absolutely, and what's the advice you would give to to the 20 year old Sangram? So is it going to be the same or is. It is it something else, huh?

How said just have fun with it because life is too short and and and if you make it make it all about numbers and growth and and try to be quote unquote as successful as others which actually should be your own personal definition of success. There are lot more people. Who have a lot more money but a lot more sad and a lot of people who have a lot less money and a lot more happy. So you have to figure out what is success. Do you define yourself? And I, I think I I could have done a better job of defining that for myself early on. Like right now, it's not that I have unlimited money or anything like that, but I think money is not what I think about. And the more I do that, the more. Quote unquote personal happiness and joy. I feel in life as opposed to what people might call it success. I don't even see that so 20 year old would be all prideful and all. I want this and I want that and I think maybe as I reach into my 40s. I'm like, uh, not really. The most important thing in the world, but that's probably maturity than anything.

Absolutely, so it's it's really great talking to you Sangram. I mean, I, I learned a lot. I'm in fact I took about you know, 6 pages of notes and what really stands out for me as personal learning and for this whole podcast. Is there are few statements that really stood out for me it's OK to fail because a lot of times. I think we get caught up with making success the narrative of our lives the the other one was the outside in approach. The 3rd one was. Again, goes alongside with the the problem market fit. I mean a lot of times people trying to look at the product market fit, but it's also the problem. Market fit and the the other thing is about. You know, ensuring that building a category is more about. You know you really being there for the lifetime and you're being an evangelist for that. And so I'll I like the whole peak framework that you just shared the picture of success, extreme, you know, focus being authentic and kind. You know also the the the trust. Safety and and and care when you're building a community. And I mean that. That really stood out for me. And and the the last one that really stood out for me was, you know, being intentional is better than being brilliant. I mean, I mean so true because I think we, usually you know, as as founders, we get caught up because we get loads of ideas. I especially say we get a lot of ideas when you shower up. You know every day. I mean, there's loads of ideas. You know, and you you, you just want to go and pursue all of them, but I think it's it's about being intentional focused. And trying to do things that that bring you true, true happiness and joy more than anything else in this world. So I mean and and and it's a brilliant way to actually like go full circle on this. Thanks a lot Sangram. And it's been really great. You know, conversing with you, looking forward, you know to to your book and. And any any parting. Words that you have for us.

Well, I I think go make go make rockets go make make magic happen in the world people are waiting the world is waiting for you to do that.

Great, thank you so much and you know thanks everyone for tuning in. It's been great having all of you and thank you Sangram once again.

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